Board and Batten conundrum

bigshow · May 27, 2010, 08:29:52 PM

Alright folks, we (the mrs. and I) really like board and batten. But, I am have a difficult time deciding what to do about it. Here is what i've thought of:

1. Fiber cement 16' planks - its meant for horizontal - but its not wedge shaped. should work I'd think. Downside: contractors in my area hate it, and I have definitely seen newer installs delaminating.

2. Smartside - I think this isnt wedged shaped either, and install it vertically. Locals love it for this climate. I am uncertain about the longevity of this product.

3. regular 2x construction lumber. 2x12x16' isnt too far off of the price per sq ft as fiber cement or smartside. It would be a mix of pine, spruce, and hemlock would be my guess. I suppose I'd have to paint - I dont want to pressure wash every 7 years with stain and sealer.

so, once again...any input?

thanks!

Jasperfield · May 27, 2010, 08:47:32 PM

I don't live in ND, rather WNC.

I'm not a user of any type of composite material for building (concrete excepted), either inside or out (especially sheet rock).

And, I'm not a fan of paint used outside on a building. Inside and on planed surfaces I think paint is suitable.

I believe materials should represent just what they are.

I'd suggest that you not spend more effort, time, or money trying to get around a problem than you'd spend just going straight through.

shinnlinger · May 27, 2010, 10:41:24 PM

All I can tell you is I hung raw, rough cut 1x10 pine with 1x4 bats right from my mill on my place and I love it so far(most importantly, the wife does too). I also have pretty decent overhangs and with one exception, pretty far off grade.

I went this way as it was the cheapest way for me to go (costing virtually nothing material wise), thinking I might need to replace or at least stain or something at some point , but the more I look around, I don't think I will have to do much to it. There are many barns and outbuilding that are far older than I will make it to, that are sided with raw pine and they look good to me.

I have never done a ND winter, but NH can offer some harsh winter moments from time to time....

Raphael · May 28, 2010, 08:00:48 AM

I agree, for board and batten rough sawn 1x material is the way to go.
Only debate I'd have is weather to put it up green or bone dry and saturated with stain.

losttheplot · May 28, 2010, 01:24:12 PM

If your talking about "HardiPlank" style cement board;
For board and batten siding you use 4 x 8 sheets for the boards.
There are composite "Battens" to place over the top.
If your wall is more than 8ft tall you need a horizontal "belly band" to form the horizontal joint.
The vertical joints are covered by the spacing of the battens.

Caulk the seams and under the battens and it will be a water proof wall summer and winter.
This also means that if the water gets in at a window flashing etc it cant get out again, so it is a good idea to hang it on a rain screen.

Things may have changed a little as they are making new products all the time.

The cement board products from other manufacturers can be more brittle than Hardi.
If you have problems with the corners blowing out you can pre drill them.

Go to the hardiplank web site and there are installation instructions.
You need to hang it with roofing nails and they need to hit solid wood not osb or ply.

Hardi will last very well with minimum maintenance.

Tom · May 28, 2010, 01:42:07 PM

I've seen that cement siding used around here and it seems to do good, weather-wise. It is also resistant to flame, a benefit if you heat with open fire.

Rough-cut boards get used here more frequently for board and batten. I've cut a lot of it, 7/8's gives the equivalent of a 4/4 board without the weight and battens can be cut even thinner, if you like.

If you take into consideration the reason for Board and Batten construction you will lean toward the wood. Board and Batten shines when you use random widths. Originally, it was a chosen method of sheeting when you didn't know the size of the next board. Boards weren't painted or treated and needed to be replaced if they rotted, so this method allowed the next board on the stack to be used in the repair. If the repair board didn't fit the hole left by the original board, you used two boards, butting up the seams. If you were shy of the seam, you left the gap and used a wider batten.

The sheeting that is similar is board on board. That's not quite as good, but it keeps you from having to rip boards. You dont butt up the seams, you put up boards the right distance apart that another board (kinda like a batten) can be installed with overlap on each side.

The good thing about these methods is that you aren't restricted to any certain size of board for repair.

You do have to pay attention to the bottom, and make sure that the bottom gets a chance to dry. That is one of the most vulnerable parts of board and batten, the bottoms of the boards. Rain wets it, dirt splashes on it and, before long, it begins to degrade. I guess that can be a problem with any siding, but folks tend to run board and batten closer to the ground.

If I were to side my building with board and batten "style", I would favor wood, because I have a sawmill. If I used some kind of composite or concrete, I'd have to depend on some company to make it and sell it to me.

shinnlinger · May 29, 2010, 09:31:29 AM

Since you are looking at alternatives, Tom reminded me that when I built me shop out in "California earthquake building code Oregon" I special ordered 10 foot long sheets of un-grooved T1-11. I installed these vertically and used it as an all in one sheathing and siding on a conventionally framed structure. The 10 footer allowed me to put my horizontal band where the gable started. Since I had framed rough cut 2x6 24" OC, I then put battens on over the seams in the T1-11 and right in the center, covering the seismically sensitive nail heads in the process. I had a batten every 2 feet, but I could have thrown some more in there and gone every foot for a more natural look.

Rooster · May 29, 2010, 10:03:40 AM

The 1897 barn frame that we re-raised this past month has been wrapped with 4 1/2 in. SIPs. I sort of talked the customer into using vertical board and batten pine siding. LOGDOG helped me find a log home builder who has a mill in Menominee WI who is cutting us 1 in x 12 in x 20 ft (green) White Pine siding. I will be picking out the clearer boards and ripping them down for battens. I like to cut a 15 deg. bevel on each side, with the back, or wide side of the batten being 2 1/4 in wide.

Setting the table saw at 15 deg., I can rip the first cut, roll the board front to back and rip the other edge, then flip the board end for end, and repeat the process until I am left with a thin piece of scrap. The first two passes produce battens with only one edge, so they have to be flipped end for end and have the other edge cut. It is also possible to just run the boards with the blade at 90 deg. and then come back and bevel, or let cure and put a shaper profile on the edges.

I like this system of siding, not only because that's what was originally on the frame before I dismantled it, but that the battens really help break up the large flat surface of the walls, and make it "pop" in 3-D.

Rooster

Jim_Rogers · May 29, 2010, 10:23:26 AM

Personally, I consider board and batten to be a "temporary" siding system.

The reason I say this is that I have a friend who is a landscaper and his garage shop is done with board and batten. On the side of his shop, the east side that gets the morning sun, he has replaced the battens at least twice or three times since he built it.

The reason is that these battens dry out a lot and either curl up, split, or develop some other defect and fail.

Using battens to cover gaps in siding is good for a while but as I have seen this happen to him, I have to consider this not the best siding solution.

And I would call it temporary, as it could be used to "get you by" until you can afford a better siding solution, such as lap siding, or wood shingle siding which can be placed right over the vertical boards after the battens have been removed.

If you want to have vertical wooden board siding then you could do either ship lap to create an edge where you don't need any battens to cover the gap. Or do reverse board and batten.

Reverse board and batten is where the batten is on the inside and behind the gap between boards.

Jack Sobon put this on this workshop/garage. And the way it is done is to have milled some 1/2" thick by 3" wide pieces of wood. As you side the building you place the batten on first, say at a corner, and then the board. You nail through both of them to hold the siding one, but to begin along one edge, the edge closest to the corner. Then you slide the next batten behind the first board and nail off the second edge of the first board. After, you attach the second board nailing off the edge towards the first board and slide another batten behind it, and nailing off the second edge. On and on until you have finished the side. Of course you'll have to plan it right and build it out around windows and doors.

The board siding then can expand and contract some during it's lifetime and if it does the gap between the boards doesn't allow wind or rain into the building.

If you choose to add more siding later, there are no battens to remove, just lap or shingle right over the vertical boards.

If the building is an out building and it does not have any interior wall surface covering, then you can see the battens on the inside of the space.

Also, the 1/2" x 3" wide battens can be round edge or none square edge stock as it doesn't matter. And the width could be increased to 4" should you choose to do so.

I am just relating some things that I have seen and my opinion on this subject.
I don't have any experience with other types of siding mentioned in the first post.

Jim Rogers

Dave Shepard · May 29, 2010, 04:03:34 PM

For durability, the pine siding needs to be heartwood, the sap just moves around then rots away altogether. The purpose of board and batten is so that you can use green lumber for siding. You put on the board, nailing only! in the middle. Then you nail the batten over the gap, making sure you don't nail into the boards. This allows the boards to move first when they reach equilibrium, then as they move with the seasons, which I guess is an ongoing attempt to stay at equilibrium. Putting more than one nail in the board, or nailing through the batten into the board will most likely lead to splitting of the boards and possibly the battens as well. I guess it could be considered a temporary solution, but if done right, it can last a very long time. It is more important to use a good long nail that has something substantial to sink into, than to use a lot of nails.

Jim_Rogers · May 29, 2010, 04:10:28 PM

Dave, you are right there is a definite nailing pattern to use with board and batten if the lumber is not air dry to begin with.....

shinnlinger · May 29, 2010, 11:14:07 PM

Jim,

How big is your buddies battens? I wonder if a full 1x4 has enough beef to help resist curling. I suppose I will know in a few years, but the battens on my barn are 5 year old hemlock and they seem to be fine.

I nailed my 1x10 boards only along one edge with 2 inch ring-shanks and then used a 3 inch ring-shank right in the center of the batten to allow for movement. The ring-shank was key

How do you guys frame windows?

You can see I pre-built and painted my frames and then nailed them up. My wife wanted built up two tone frames.

Took a little figuring, but I am pleased with the results.

That window was the last as my wife pulled a "Change order" on me. I installed the battens after the frame was up.

stonebroke · May 30, 2010, 07:48:16 AM

Could you use screws to secure board and batten?

Stonebroke

shinnlinger · May 30, 2010, 08:11:08 AM

Screws would hold great, but the expense and extra time vs the effectiveness of the ring shank in my framing gun and speed, I went ring shank. I cannot (easily)pull the boards off nailing every 3-4 feet right in the center of the batten between the boards. Regular nails and I can pull the board off the building. I also wonder how screw heads would look.

bigshow · May 30, 2010, 10:27:10 AM

thanks for the responses....

one thing..I have SIP walls. I think I'd only trust a screw since I don't have alot of material to bite into. Anyone with experience with Board and Batten on SIPS?

Raphael · May 30, 2010, 10:45:45 AM

I haven't done B&B over SIPS but I'd want firring strips (well screwed) between my SIPs and the Boards to keep the OSB dry and solid. And I'd want to go as thin and light with the boards as possible...

shinnlinger · May 30, 2010, 10:57:59 AM

I used strips of tarpaper for my furing strips, but you could also use cedar breather or the foam they put under metal roof ridge caps.

My ring shanks are holding solid in 1/2 zip wall which is just name brand OSB. If it was somthing that really concerned you, you could screw furring strips horizontaly around the house in a continouse band, leaving space between each for drainage. I'd put these bands every 3 feet working up the wall, Then nail the B&B to the strips. This gives you the back breathing ability also.

stonebroke · May 30, 2010, 11:21:09 AM

I had a idea of putting up board and battem with stainlees steel screws,waiting five or ten years and taking them down to sell to the city folk that like barn boards. Am I crazy or would it be worthwhile? Then I would not have to paint the barns.And I would have new siding every ten years.

Stonebroke

Jim_Rogers · May 30, 2010, 11:23:06 AM

stonebroke, years ago we created some great gray stain for coloring some new rope to make it look old......

too bad it wouldn't work with wood.....or would it?..... hm......

shinnlinger · May 30, 2010, 11:29:36 AM

the ol' steel wool in vinegar stain would save you 10 years....

Raider Bill · May 30, 2010, 12:06:08 PM

Shinnlinger,

That's a great looking house!

Dave Shepard · May 30, 2010, 01:24:26 PM

stonebroke, I hear that some Amish in PA cycle through the barn siding, leaving it up just long enough to get some good color on it.

stonebroke · May 30, 2010, 01:32:46 PM

I wonder how long they have to leave it up?

Stonebroke

Dave Shepard · May 30, 2010, 01:36:18 PM

I was told about five years, but I suspect that the south side weathers quicker.

bigshow · June 16, 2010, 09:59:29 AM

Ok, well I'm 'this' close to going with EWP for siding and white cedar for gable shakes. I'm leaning terribly heavy towards Reverse board and batten as it will save me a step in adding firring strips. So, any clue how wide of a batten to go with? I'm thinking 4" wide - 2" exposure and each board will overlap 1". how about the nailing schema for the boards? still a nail in the center every foot or so?

I will name my 2nd born after the person with the best response.