iDRY Vacuum Kilns

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Vacutherm iDry input

Started by schwanee, August 04, 2018, 07:41:26 PM

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Glenn1

This morning, I called Jim to say that I was getting an error message about low power and then the breakers would trip.  We wired it ourselves so at Jim's suggestion, I brought in a licensed electrician to make sure that the voltage was correct.  We were getting 240V but when the kiln started up, it was only pulling .5 amps and shortly thereafter the breakers would trip.    Jim had a few engineers with him as he gave us things to look for.  After doing quite a bit of testing, we found a wire that was touching a large bolt  back in the main panel.  Vacutherm tests every model before they go out so it was strange to see that this wire had shifted and shorted itself out.  We replaced the wire and the system is now operational.

I have dealt with a lot of companies over technical issues but Jim and his crew are the absolute best.  I am very appreciative to the time and professionalism that they showed.
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

boardmaker

Glenn,

Keep the info coming.  This is a great thread!

Like the others, I'm living vicariously through you.

Lucas

Glenn1

I am now up and running. I put 4/4 green cedar, 4/4 walnut with a MC of 28, and some live edge 8/4 walnut slabs (Mc over 30 but air dried for 5 months).  Jim said that I should wait till Sunday before opening the kiln to check Mc.  So far, so good
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Busysawyer

Glenn,  what kind of temps are you seeing? 24hrs in I was at about 133f, 48hrs about 140f and at 72 hours in 147f.  I know the temp depends on load size and overall mc just curious as to that you are seeing. Thanks
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

YellowHammer

Did anybody get a drying schedule, or drying conditions for their kilns?   Temperature vs pressure vs moisture removal rate vs species? Are these published anywhere?  How do you know where you are in terms of safety factors, drying optimization, etc? What algorithm is the kiln using? Did the manufacturer provide knowdge or just a "set it and forget it" system?  Can you slow the schedule down?  Speed it up?  Customize it? 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Busysawyer

Yh. It is pretty much just push start. As far as I can tell there isn't much for options. I know they can change things but as an end user I think there is pretty much one option.  Push start.  I think I might be able to adjust the duration of the fan direction but I haven't tried. It runs 2hours one way then 2 hours the other. The vac is consistent throughout the process .  It pumps down to 7.6 inHg at shuts off the pump . When  it hits 8.4 inHg the pump comes back on. It dumps for 10 min each 24hour period to let the water that has pooled on the floor out.  I think what Jim said is that it took them a long time and a lot of r and d to get this system to work the way it does and they dont want people to go around and mess with setting. He said Nile kiln owners are the hardest people to get to understand that there is no drying schedule and it really does work as simple as pushing start.  
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

PA_Walnut

Quote from: Busysawyer on November 23, 2018, 01:24:11 AMHe said Nile kiln owners are the hardest people to get to understand that there is no drying schedule and it really does work as simple as pushing start.  

:o Was he formally an Apple engineer?
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Busysawyer

Pa, that's funny. I doubt it. He doesn't seem to have the necessary smug levels to be an apple employee.  I've had numerous conversations with the guy over the last few months. We've talked about things not kiln related. Such as family, projects around the house, my business goals.  He is very down to earth, intelligent and it is obvious he is excited about drying wood and really believes in the products he is selling. 
Here are some more pics of the control screen


 

 

 

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

YellowHammer

Busy, thanks for providing the photos.  
What is the blue line in the graph?  I can't see the legend. 

What capacity are the heat strips?  Looks like the heat strips are "On Off" as opposed to continuously "On" until the steady state temps are reached.  That is a curious setting, indicating too rapid heating to final operating temperature should be avoided?  

I have been doing some literature research about vacuum drying technology and process, and a paper co-authored by @Wood Doctor Dr. Wengert is very interesting reading, identifying and reviewing the advantageous and disadvantageous of vacuum drying in a an 18 month or so drying evaluation.  "Vacuum Drying In A Small Commercial Kiln-18 Months Experience," R.W. Rice and E. M. Wengert.  This study was not done on the iDry, but another manufacturer.  As I have said before, I have no experience with vacuum drying but the methodology is very interesting to me.  Gene, if you have other documents you recommend, please give us a reading list.  

Does the kiln have these possible following drying characteristics, both pro and con?

Quote from the paper, "The overall quality of the dried wood has been excellent with very little splitting or checking, minimal casehardening, and with very good color."

"... on the other hand, without casehardening, (or tension set) and the dry outside shell, vacum drying may produce more warp." 

"From time to time, for reasons not fully understood by us, we did notice more cup than we would have expected in conventional drying." 

"We found that shorter pieces dried to a more uniform MC and faster than long pieces."

"We found the squares dried better than lumber."

"Thinner lumber dried better and more evenly than thicker"

"We also seemed to find...a piece of lumber that had a region of high MC even though the rest of the piece was quite dry."


If there is no published schedule, I'd like to know the settings to better understand what is happening.  Seems the vacuum pump cycles at about 8 inHg constantly with a moderate deadband, and the temps seems to be controlled to a constant 150F or so, after an initial gentle rise, and the fans reverse on a timer, is there any variability on the timing or magnitude of these settings?


Thanks, any and all info is appreciated.




  




  

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

GAB

@japarker4:
In entry 132, the second and third photos, the title is SYTEM SETUP.
Since I could not find SYTEM in the dictionary I am assuming it is an acronym.
I'm curious as to what it stands for.
TIA,
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Busysawyer

Looks like a misspelling of system. I never even noticed, my brain just added the s. 
Yh, the blue line is vac. pressure. The spike is when it dumps accumulated water. As far as heat, I'm heating with a wood boiler. The fluctuations in heat are just the fan reversing. Blowing towards the temp sensor and then away. The temps hit 135f pretty quickly and have very slowly increasing as the wood is drying. 
Is the evaluation gene is working on done with a vac kiln with heat plates or a kiln like the idry with less vacuum and air flow?
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Busysawyer

Yh, as far as heat goes mine is a fan and exchanger. The kiln has been constantly calling for heat from the boiler pump. Jim said it is sized so it should be constantly heating until the load has dried sufficiently to reach the max temp of 160f. At that point it will stop calling for heat. He said the less mc in the wood the higher the temps will climb. I am nowhere near as knowledgeable on kiln drying as you and many others here are. I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject and have learned quite a bit from my phone conversations with you but still have just a basic understanding of the process. From my limited knowledge it sure seems that vac kilns are a whole lot different than the conventional dh kilns so many here have experience with.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Glenn1

Quote from: Busysawyer on November 22, 2018, 05:21:14 PM
Glenn,  what kind of temps are you seeing? 24hrs in I was at about 133f, 48hrs about 140f and at 72 hours in 147f.  I know the temp depends on load size and overall mc just curious as to that you are seeing. Thanks
I used the heat boost button since the boards had already been air dried.  The last couple of days have varied between 130 and 144.  The exception is when the drain opens for 10 minutes every 24 hours.  The temp then drops into the mid 120'2 and the vacuum goes all the way back to 30 (our normal atmosphere).  Then it works it's way down to 7.8 or 8.  I will probably need to insulate the area close to the vacuum end of the container as the vacuum makes a faint amount of noise when it runs.  (I have decibel readings if you're interested.). I will be opening the kiln on Sunday and checking the wood. I'm expecting the cedar and the 4/4 to be close to being done.  I don't expect the 8/4 walnut to be ready.  I'm not sure if I'll add additional wood to the 8/4 walnut.
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

scsmith42

Robert, as I recall from my conversation with Jim, his method of simplifying the process is as follows.

1 - introduce a predetermined amount of BTU's of heat into the lumber.
2 - as the vacuum pulls moisture out of the lumber, a cooling effect occurs within the kiln chamber.
3 - as the lumber becomes drier, less moisture is removed, thus less cooling takes place, which in turn allows the temps in the kiln to increase.
4 - once the MC% removal is minimal, the temps increase to 160, and the drying is complete.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Busysawyer

Glenn, sounds like yours is running very similar to mine. I was curious if the electric heated model would climb up to temp quicker.  
Sc, that sounds about right . I cant imagine how much electric heat one of these units uses. The heat exchanger on mine is large. Bigger than my 200k btu shop heater. Mine has been calling for heat going on 5 days now without stopping. It looks like it is delivering the max amount of heat it is capable of. Like you said the temp climbs because there is less evaporation and less water to heat. The amount of heat introduced to the kiln stays the same.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

PA_Walnut

Quote from: Busysawyer on November 23, 2018, 08:56:48 AMPa, that's funny. I doubt it. He doesn't seem to have the necessary smug levels to be an apple employee.


OK, but watch for the indicators: black turtleneck shirts, consumption of organic cashews, wool caps (worn even in summer), overall defensive behavior, man-purse, and electrically-powered vehicle(s).
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

WDH

Do y'all measure the water coming out of the vacuum kiln?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Glenn1

There are two 1 1'4" pipes that exhaust water.  They are only a few inches apart. One is obviously for the water that is removed from the wood. The other pipe is water that has been run thru the vacuum.  When the vacuum is running, it uses 3/4 gallons of water per minute.  Right now, I have them being collected together and sent outside.  I'm waiting to see how the first load comes out.  If there are any issues, then I may start measuring the output.
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Southside

Quote from: Glenn1 on November 24, 2018, 09:08:00 AMWhen the vacuum is running, it uses 3/4 gallons of water per minute


Glenn - can you explain that a bit more?  I don't understand what you mean by that.
Thanks
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Busysawyer

Wdh, like Glenn I'm just letting mine go to the drain. Not measuring it.
South side, the vac pump requires a water line to cool the pump. When vac pump is running it uses .75 gpm. 

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Busysawyer

Southside, few more pics of the water supply.
The vac pump runs intermittently. When the pressure drops the pump kick on. It runs for maybe 1 minute to regain the set pressure. By my rough calculations it is wasting about 4 gallons per hour.

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Southside

Thanks BS, that makes sense.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

japarker4

Quote from: GAB on November 23, 2018, 09:31:13 AM
@japarker4:
In entry 132, the second and third photos, the title is SYTEM SETUP.
Since I could not find SYTEM in the dictionary I am assuming it is an acronym.
I'm curious as to what it stands for.
TIA,
Gerald
Thanks for the proof reading Gerald. We'll get it changed on Monday!

japarker4

QuoteOK, but watch for the indicators: black turtleneck shirts, consumption of organic cashews, wool caps (worn even in summer), overall defensive behavior, man-purse, and electrically-powered vehicle(s).
My wife does feed me organic sometimes. Otherwise I drive a pickup truck and wear somewhat dirty Carhartts everyday!

japarker4

Quote from: Busysawyer on November 23, 2018, 09:36:36 PM
Glenn, sounds like yours is running very similar to mine. I was curious if the electric heated model would climb up to temp quicker.  
Sc, that sounds about right . I cant imagine how much electric heat one of these units uses. The heat exchanger on mine is large. Bigger than my 200k btu shop heater. Mine has been calling for heat going on 5 days now without stopping. It looks like it is delivering the max amount of heat it is capable of. Like you said the temp climbs because there is less evaporation and less water to heat. The amount of heat introduced to the kiln stays the same.
Our hot water coil is significantly smaller than 200MBTU.  The electric coils are only a few kw each, similar to the power consumption of a small DH kiln. 

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