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Brainstorming about building a shop building- advice needed.

Started by Celeriac, September 03, 2013, 05:10:23 PM

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Celeriac

For years I have been accumulating woodworking equipment and dearly need a shop. Right now it would be a hobby mostly but I would like to move toward making it pay, so to speak. Given the terrain one good option that presents itself is building a bank barn style building. It fits an unused piece of property and it would fit in well with the house and other barn. Trying to come up with a machinery layout has been problematic but has given me a few general ideas, as such 36'x72' or 40'x80' seems to be a good basic size.

I would like to go with timber construction but there are a few factors that have me questioning that idea. The first factor is floor loading. The wood shop would be on the upper floor and machinery weighs up quickly. A cluster of a planer, jointer, and table saw may place 10,000# in a fairly small area. Experience shows that a hay mow can sustain a good bit of weight albeit very evenly distributed. But our barn floor exhibits some flex when running a tractor or wagons in and out...  The second factor is that I would like to have the second floor be clear span. Is it feasible to clear span 40' with a timber truss giving consideration to wind, snow, dust collector piping, etc? 

In a nutshell, am I barking up the wrong tree in considering timber? Concrete and steel? A combination of the two? Or start looking for a level building site  ???

A sketch or two...






Thanks,
Aaron
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

Jim_Rogers

If the second floor or "machinery level" is the area where you want it clear span then you maybe able to do it with a truss roof.

If the machinery level does have these heavy machines in a small area then the floor joists and supporting timbers will have to be large and spaced closely together.

And or you'll have to make the entire area strong enough to hold up these machines regardless of where you think you may want them.

I have worked on a 40' x 50' truck barn that had a 16' ceiling and he roofed it with store bought trusses.

Below the plates the barn was made up of 6x6 posts every 8' or so with 2x6 nailers on the outside of them for vertical 1x10 siding.
After he sided it and all, he put some insulation on the inside and the put wood over the insulation to hold it in place and make it so it could be heated from his outside boiler.

You'll need to begin with a good floor plan and try and figure out where you want you machines. The weight of each machine as best you can so we can start figuring out the floor system.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Celeriac

Quoteor you'll have to make the entire area strong enough to hold up these machines regardless of where you think you may want them.

That is my inclination as I already have some other dense equipment and one never knows what the future holds when it comes to machinery or changing layout.

-Aaron
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

Satamax

Well, don't know what  is your plan exactly. But, imho, any woodworking shop should have the gable ends open-able, (like barn or garage doors)  so you can work on longer timbers than usual. 72 is already big, but you never know when you might need 80+ to work on a 40 beam. And I really think having it at ground level is a good idea. When you won't to get a whole pallet of wood inside the shop, so you don't have to de-stack and carry all the wood in by hand.

Best layout for me is machines against the walls, except jointer and planer which should be in the middle.

Let say bandsaw first on the left for example, then radial arm saw a workbench to put all the cut pieces, may be a movable table, with shelves underneath, so you can carry it to the jointer, not a bad idea to have your stove next to that table/workbench, it's comfy to be next to it in the winter. And also a pillar drill. then on the other side you'd have a morticer, a tenoner and shaper, then sanding machine/ sanders. May be another workbench, with sharpening equipment, vices, chisels etc. All machines should be on wheels or movable with a pallet truck, I think.  And a good thing is to have easy accessible power tool shelves. You'd have all your circular saws, routers, etc on a few shelves, labeled and compartmented is good too if you have workers. Don't put those shelves behind a machine. It's a pain :D  Recuperating office or desktop drawers for the machines tooling and to make table extension is good too. Another thing, remember that heavy machinery on a wood floor makes a kind of giant speaker, making your workshop very loud. Lastly, if you use your plans, put two little terraces at each end with those doors I was writing about. If you can get a pickup in at each end, may be a forklift, you'd be sorted.

Well, hope this helps.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Dave VH

I am with satamax on that one. I would hate to think of getting all of my material upstairs, and then getting the finished projects that I do back down.  I do have a forklift, but it would still be a pain. 

  My background is a framer, I have also built many pole barns, and riding areanas with clear spans up to 130'.  There is a time to use steel.  To put that much weight on a second floor without some serious flexing, wow, your asking alot out of wood.  I am interested to see the design, please keep us updated on your decision.
I cut it twice and it's still too short

Celeriac

In keeping with bank barn tradition the second floor would be at ground level too, so no steps and such. It would actually be very close to the level of the driveway. The lower bottom would open to the field below.

Regarding layout- my hope is to have machinery placed so I can work 16' lengths without moving equipment around and such. Portable machines and pallet jacks are fine for smaller equipment. A 180 Powermatic planer wheels about nicely, a 24" Wadkin does not  >:( Oliver jointers do not move easily either.

I am not opposed to steel and concrete especially for the floor. The tough thing has been trying to make some apples to apples comparison of cost.

-Aaron

Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

Hilltop366

Not sure what your plans are for the first floor, but with enough beams and post in the right place and keeping the floor joist spans reasonable I'm sure the floor could be made strong and stiff enough.

One thing I have seen on a work shop that I liked was a door that was at pickup truck height for ease of loading and un loading larger and/or heavy items.

Dave VH

  Look into stress core concrete, I don't know if it will be cost effective to span 40' ft or not.  32' is easily attainable with it, and give you the solid floor that a woodshop deserves.
I cut it twice and it's still too short

TW

To me this looks like a fairly good starting point.
-I would make a truss roof and with wooden trusses a span of 40' (12 meters) is in my area viewed as maximum for a cost effective build. Provided that the trusses are high enough (reasonably steep roof and enough height above the plate) and provided that they are designed by an engineer for your snow load+ weight of ceiling with insulation+ weight of roof and the trusses themselves+  the weight of ducting and machine counter-shafts and storage racks and whatever that may end up hanging from the ceiling in the shop the will surely be strong enough whether home made or factory made.
-The walls could for instance be stud framed from sawn 2x6" at 2 foot centers or something like that depending on the snow and wind loads of your area. I personally would not use the undersized planed studs that are sold everywhere but the real sawn thing which has much greater strength due to greater sections.
-Thick block walls or concrete walls of one kind or another should do for the lower storey but check with an engineer that the chosen type can handle the loads.
-For the floor I think I would change your design a bit. 20' free span is too much. You would require monster sized continuous beams laid very close to each other. If you do not have monster sized trees to cut them from and a sawmill to make cants some 8x16 inches and 40 feet long it would become very very expensive too. Primary girders from steel HEA beams with wooden secondary joists laid the other way on top of them would be an option. Concrete would be another.

Just some thoughts from an engineer and carpenter in a country far away.

Roger Nair

Celeriac, I would urge you to look in to your aspirations around the work you want to produce.  Consider material inventory, material handling, the shop tooling, assembly area, finishing room, etc.  If your headed towards a production shop with hacks of sheet goods stacked up then you are requiring a shop built to withstand warehouse and factory type loading.  Whatever the case, a specification of loading should reflect your intended needs.  In terms of a basic building scheme, I would suggest two longitudinal beams to support floor joists.  The beams could be either  steel or heavy timber with wooden joist running over the beams.  If you want only one center beam then you might have to consider wooden lumber parallel chord trusses or I joist as floor joists.  Anyhow the design will have to be very robust and must follow a need and use plan.

As a young man during the run up to the stagflation days of the mid seventies, I worked in an old industrial building that was wood framed, the floor system was 3 x 12 joist 12 inches on center,I can't recall the span but I'm inclined to say 12 feet, with a concrete slab poured over diagonal board sheathing.  The shop floor had its share of heavy equipment.  The floor seemed very quiet.
An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds, the pessimist fears that the optimist is correct.--James Branch Cabell

Celeriac

QuoteAs a young man during the run up to the stagflation days of the mid seventies, I worked in an old industrial building that was wood framed, the floor system was 3 x 12 joist 12 inches on center,I can't recall the span but I'm inclined to say 12 feet, with a concrete slab poured over diagonal board sheathing.  The shop floor had its share of heavy equipment.  The floor seemed very quiet.

Recently we bought some equipment located in an old industrial area of Cleveland and the floor appeared to be of similar construction- 3"x12" on 12" with iron joist hangers. I only had a look at the underside so no idea on the actual floor structure.

If it takes that kind of structure then concrete and steel is likely the best solution. I did a little math on paper trying to pencil out some cost for wood vs concrete. For a given thickness it's kind of close when figuring just the cost of the concrete and only the log cost for lumber. Concrete would be in and done in a few days. Me sawing out 20k board feet of lumber plus drying and surfacing, etc. is a years work.

Has anyone dealt with Lock-Deck? http://www.lockdeck.com/
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

DaleK

My tiestall barn has an addition built in 52 that's 34' wide, clearspan. That's a hip roof. It isn't going anywhere. As for floor, I know of several barns built here in the 50s when Dutch elm was cleaning house that had the haymow floor built with 2x6 rough cut elm laid on edge and nailed together. Overkill, but you can drive a bulldozer on those floors. Just depends how much wood and effort you want to put into it.

It would depend on the lay of the land and what you want/need to put on the ground floor to me. If you have a hillside that will let you get a reasonable amount of ground level access to the upper floor, you can avoid any drainage issues with water getting into the bottom floor, and you can maybe work a couple of loading docks into it, go for it.

You didn't say what you want stored on the bottom level, that may make a difference.
Hud-Son Oscar 330
Wallenstein FX110
Echo chainsaws and a whole bunch of tractors

Celeriac

I was cruising online and found this from an Italian company that builds equestrian structures. It's tough to tell but the the truss timbers may be laminated. Looks like at least 40' span.

 
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

thecfarm

I have seen those arenas just use regular trusses. But there is no more room in the middle than the edge of the walls.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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