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stand conversion

Started by Splinter, July 11, 2008, 07:39:13 AM

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Splinter

What is the best method to convert hemlock(32%), red maple(37%) & beech(11%) to red oak/white pine? percentages are basal area.
Soils are good for pine ok for oak.(southern NH)
There are some seed trees around, WP looks like good stock, oak they got most of the good stuff over the years.
Pine needs quite a bit of shade to come out straight, but competition with sprouts will be tough.
Stand is marginally commercial in size (8.6" average diameter) and mildly overstocked at this point. 132BA. 73BA is acceptable growing stock.
Advance regen is all beech/hemlock.

FWIW a neighboring tree farm used a brontosaurus as part of a white pine conversion project this year. Don't have much more detail than that.

Thanks





woodtroll

How much oak regen is present?

Splinter


SwampDonkey

Ain't going to work. That beech will kill off any oak from shade and resilience and the hemlock will live for ever (relative term) in under the beech even if it doesn't get released. Your looking at the impossible. I suspect it was a firewood lot and the folks just took a little beech as needed and the nice oak. Easy splitting. :D  Trouble was, too much shade by just dabbing along for anything but hemlock and beech to prosper.  W. Pine will grow in smaller openings until pole sized and if it's too shaded by then, it'll meet the maker. :-X
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Clark

I would say that SD has given some good advice (if grim).  Tough to get anything other than tolerant species established under a tolerant species dominated canopy.

You said you have some white pine seed trees in the area.  Depending on what our abilities are you could thin around them 100-200' to try and establish seedlings.  I think you'd be best off bringing it down real low, say 40-60 BA so the canopy won't close up real fast and give the seedlings an opportunity to become poles.

That is my advice, you've got a tough row to hoe.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Ron Scott

Ditto! to what Swamp and Clark stated. Why do you want to convert to oak and white pine? You may be able to nurture some oak and white pine crop trees into the stands diversity through individual species management, but a total stand conversion would be most difficult, time consuming, and costly.
~Ron

Splinter

"Impossible", "grim", "tough row to hoe","ain't gonna work". you guys are a tough crowd.

Agreed its a tough situation, thats why I am here looking for advice, and it is appreciated.

Forgot to mention this stand is 100 acres uneven aged. There is some diversity in there to work with. So the answer as usual is to grow the best of what you have. That suits me fine.

Crop tree release matches my objectives for the forest. I get to grow the best wood and keep a forest too  ;D.
Any problems with crop tree release perpetuating tolerant species?
Would it be beneficial to kill the tolerant regen in the vicinity of the crop trees at this time or is it too early to make much difference?

Clark, Sounds like a small shelterwood cut around the best seed trees. I like it. Next commercial cut I'll try it out.
For some reason I never thought of using beech & hemlock as shelter trees, the pictures always show pine  ::)

FWIW The current management plan for this stand calls for 1/4-1 acre patch clearcuts and "free thinnings".
Probably OK technically but a lot of torn up woods for a couple bucks in the pocket. Neither of which I need right now.



tonich

Yet a good reason for the "tough crowd" to shout: "Impossible", "grim", "tough row to hoe","ain't gonna work"  ;D

Moreover, it must be pretty hard to replace beech with oaks. I could hardly imagine it.  ;)

Shelterwood cut wouldn't lead to the desired composition. Patch clearcuts would give you beech sprouts back, but with worse quality stems. The only real possibility is a forest fire.  :-X :-X :-X

SwampDonkey

Don't give Toni a flame thrower.  :D :D 8)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tonich

 :D :D 8)
Hold on, SwampDonkey! Neither intended to use that stuff, nor to encourage anyone else to do it. 

Generally, I would be a happy owner of a native mixed hemlock, red maple and beech stand. Well, that’s just me! Don’t know, when it comes to sell timber out of it, though.

Dodgy Loner

Here's the easiest way to convert your forest to white pine/oak: sell it and buy a white pine/oak forest ;D ;D

Ya don't want too much shade over your white pines.  Competition with similarly-sized trees is the best way to get them to come out straight.  Heavy shading from overhead will mean that more shade tolerant trees (e.g., beech and hemlock) will thrive, while the white pines will struggle along and be overtaken.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: tonich on July 14, 2008, 08:02:44 AM
Hold on, SwampDonkey! Neither intended to use that stuff, nor to encourage anyone else to do it. 

Yeah we understand, but makes for sensational reading the day after.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Splinter

Looks like there are some studies showing very good beech control with glyphosate hack n squirt and cut stump. Gotta start somewhere.  HWA will likely tear up the hemlocks, although I will be sad to see some of them go. HWA has been identified in the county.

I think what started me on this stand conversion thing is knowing the hemlocks are on borrowed time, and a beech sprout thicket gives me no joy of heart or wallet.

tonich

Quote from: SwampDonkey on July 14, 2008, 09:38:09 AM
Yeah we understand, but makes for sensational reading the day after.  ;D

This is a place for having fun too. Only theory and learning is not enough.
Entertaining theory and learning is much better.  :D :D :)



Splinter,
You sound like a brave man. Good luck with the Roundup treatment.
Oh, and photos are always welcome here. ;D

Splinter

Sometimes its hard to know the line between bravery and foolishness.

I'm looking hard though, squirt bottle in hand.  :)


Splinter

An update for those that care.
Walked this stand with my friend/logger, and there is enough pine, oak, and other oddball higher value trees to release.
Problem with the forestry plan i paid for is the whole in/out tree thing, if you have a stand of oak poles that are just out its called hemlock. Great for industrial forestry, not so great for my forest.

Nicest surprise was a gun barrel straight and smooth 30" pine. Nice to see a teenager amongst all the babies.


SwampDonkey

Quote from: Splinter on July 25, 2008, 02:55:10 PM
An update for those that care.

We all do. ;)


Quote
Problem with the forestry plan i paid for is the whole in/out tree thing, if you have a stand of oak poles that are just out its called hemlock.

I don't understand and I wonder who taught that style timber inventory. It's either an 'in' tree or it's not tallied at all. With all the different oak species down south I could understand confusing those. But, calling oak a hemlock is an interesting spin for sure.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ibseeker

Quote from: Splinter on July 14, 2008, 12:12:52 PM
Looks like there are some studies showing very good beech control with glyphosate hack n squirt and cut stump. Gotta start somewhere.  HWA will likely tear up the hemlocks, although I will be sad to see some of them go. HWA has been identified in the county.


Splinter, what studies are you referring to? I'm going to be battling a beech problem after some recent logging and this thread has me wondering what I'm facing. I whacked the heck out of the beech but without hack and squirt, I'm thinking it'll all come back.
Chuck
worn out poulan, Stihl 250SC, old machete and a bag of clues with a hole in the bottom

SwampDonkey

If you have any intention of spacing the second growth, as in pre-commercial thinning,  make sure to knock down any unhealthy beech pole wood. That stuff will inhibit your work and inhibit regeneration of other species. What I have found over the years is landowners leave that stuff behind and expect it to grow into a healthy tree. What happens is our diseased pole wood sized beech turns into 'apple trees', short and wide branching. I see some people end up cutting all the nice healthy regen and leaving that stuff as crop trees because it is more advanced and hard to cut down to the ground. I refuse to space sites with that all through the new regen.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Splinter

SD,
No they were not calling a hemlock an oak, that was a little tongue in cheek, expressing some frustration with my ex-forester. There is enough oak/pine in the stand to make crop release worthwhile. I think his cruise results would be different after 20 years of crop tree release.

Thanks for the input, beech control will be part of any harvest and release on the property.

ibseeker,
here are a couple beech control studies.
http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/misc/ne_2006_kochenderfer_001.pdf
http://nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/jrnl/2001/ne_2001_kochenderfer_001.pdf



ibseeker

Thanks Splinter, looks like I've got some studying to do. For some reason, (like I'm dense) this whole process is hard for me to wrap my mind around. I understand the hack-n-squirt methods but trying to identify which species to promote and which to remove is just not clear. I'm concerned that if I don't do anything or the take the wrong approach then I'll have a bigger problem than I have now. I might be trying to look at this forest in an incorrect manner....maybe if I took smaller sections that fit into the text book descriptions it might make more sense. With a partially logged forest with fairly sizeable strips (4-5 acres)of open space and then other areas with 80' White Oak (3-4 ac) and no understory and then dense hemlock stands (5-6 ac)....I'm confused just writing this down. I think I need to map/chart this and do some type of inventory. Every time I think I'm making headway some more info comes up and I feel like I'm back to square one.

It could be complicated enough that I'll just have to continue my search for a Consulting Forester to help me with a detailed plan. The last one who walked my forest with me seemed to think he couldn't do much to help me, then again maybe he thought I knew more than I do. Thanks for the links. I'll put them to use.
Chuck
worn out poulan, Stihl 250SC, old machete and a bag of clues with a hole in the bottom

Black_Bear

OK, I'm sick as a dog and home for the day and bored, so I thought I'd comment on your situation, hoping to get some feedback.

Sounds as though the stand has already been converted. The mature pines and oaks were cut, but perhaps the harvest wasn't heavy enough, which promoted the release of the tolerant hemlock and beech understory and the release and/or establishment of the relatively less tolerant red maple. Beech and hemlock are both climax species and unless removed will tend to perpetuate the same species. Red maple tends to be a pioneer species and may have been established in the larger openings created by past harvests.

Instead of a full blown stand conversion, over time can you simply weed out the unwanted species and try to promote the desired species? Some type of hybrid irregular shelterwood/seed tree cut where the white pine, red oak, red maple, and I'm assuming a smattering of birches is favored and the beech and hemlock are eventually phased out through timely cuttings and treatments such as hack and squirt? The time needed, and time is money, for a hack and squirt treatment generally prevents the practice from being popular throughout the northeast. But, if you are willing to provide the sweat equity then the hack and squirt becomes feasible. This may seem obvious to some, but I don't think anyone has mentioned that successful regeneration of white pine is highly dependent on the presence of a good seed crop and proper site preparation. Generally a shelterwood cut will provide the necessary shade to discourage the widespread presence of the weevil in pine, yet allow for enough light to promote adequate growth of the pine and oak seedlings and saplings, which are intermediate in shade tolerance.

Also, cutting the beech and red maple during the height of summer generally will promote much less sprout growth than a winter harvest will. During the winter the sugars and elements stored within the roots will be readily available for sprout production during the next growing season. A growing season harvest ensures that the majority of sugars and organic materials will be located within the stem of the tree and thus removed during the harvest. No matter how you attack it, remember that "white pine-no. red oak-red maple" is a naturally occurring stand type found in your area, so it may be beneficial to promote a stand that may occur naturally.   

Without knowing all the factors it is hard to determine what would be best for the stand. These are the type of lots I hope to manage someday when I get licensed in NH. I like the northern hardwood stands and the mixed HW/SW stands, but there is something about a WP/RO stand that makes me drool. Maybe it's because we don't see many of them here in northern VT and NH. As a footnote, I have never seen the Brown Brontosaurus cut merchantable timber, but one morning we pulled into a sugar bush harvest we had in Easton, NH to find seven of the Bronto's on the landing getting ready to mow down the foliage that had grown up on an adjacent powerline. That was an impressive sight with those machines and the 7-8 skidders, feller-buncher, delimber, and slasher/loader we had on the landing.

Splinter

Quote from: Black_Bear on September 02, 2008, 01:50:24 PM
there is something about a WP/RO stand that makes me drool.

Think you nailed it. I agree about wp/ro.
Have some pole stands coming like that.

D

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