Hard starting in cold weather questions

[Gary_C]

I tried the halogen light on the intake manifold trick and that didn't work today either.

I will be changing the oil to something other than what's in there next time it's warm, most likely tomorrow.
I may buy some other oil than what I have on hand which is 10-30w.

A halogen bulb will get hot but it will only heat the air around it. What you need is an infared or heat lamp bulb to point directly at the engine.

Don't forget the hydraulic oil. The drag of the hydraulic pump can overcome good starters and a good battery.

[r.man]

Used to be that the fall oil change would swap out the 30 oil for the 20 or 10 SAE to help with cold weather starting. Might help. I would also check how well the choke is working. With an updraft carb you should be able to partially or fully remove the rubber hose that connects the carb to other pipes that go to the air breather. With the choke on crank the engine a couple of revolutions without starting it. Then stop cranking and open the choke. You should be able to see gas running out of the carb area. I did like the suggestion of depressing the clutch while cranking. All of these little tests should help point to a solution. Good luck.

[thecfarm]

I always depress the clutch on my tractor when I start it.

[Jim_Rogers]

Its possible that your starter is on its way out and drawing a lot of current but not turning the engine over fast enough.  If the starter doesn't turn over fast with a new battery and you're sure of all your connections and wire sizes, the starter might be at fault.  I had this problem with one of my old farm tractors and the new starter made a huge difference.

I have begun to think it maybe the starter. But I will see if and when I replace the battery. I have another battery that I just got for my plow truck and I may swap that one into the machine to see if it is the battery or not. As I mentioned I tested the current battery and it said it was good.

Jim.you said you never got it running today?

No, other events took my attention elsewhere.

Don't forget the hydraulic oil. The drag of the hydraulic pump can overcome good starters and a good battery.

As this machine was set up to be a tractor with the front bucket being an attachment the hydraulic pump comes off the front of the engine off the main pulley that runs the fan belt for the water pump and generator. It is a direct drive shaft thing. So there is not way for me to get at it easily to either disconnect or heat it up. Heating up the hydraulic doesn't seem to be an easy option.

I just called my local Case backhoe dealer and the parts guy says they don't have a block heater that will install into this engine that I have. So that's some bad news.
He suggested a magnetic heater attached to the bottom of the oil pan. I have tried that years before and it didn't seem to work. I even tried that attached to the intake manifold and it didn't seem to work there either.

r.man: I have noticed that I can't keep the choke open more then a few turns or it will easily flood the carburetor. And I know that only one or two short turns is usually enough to get to to go.

I have had this starter rebuilt before and I have a good starter shop near me.

I may change the oil today and put in some very light weight oil for the rest of the winter. Very warm here today, over 40°F right now with rain.

Thanks for all your advice and comments.

Jim Rogers

[snowstorm]

dose the motor have any core plugs  [ frost plugs] just buy an immersion style block heater . they work real well. some motors have a steel plate you can take off and the heater goes there. take starter to a starter shop and have them check it out. then buy a good battery. dekca or interstate

[chevytaHOE5674]

If the motor doesn't have any accessible freeze plugs then does it have a coolant drain on the side of the block? If so and it has space inside the motor you can get an NPT threaded heater to replace that drain.

If that doesn't work then you can install a lower radiator hose heater.

[Jim_Rogers]

If that doesn't work then you can install a lower radiator hose heater.

I asked the case backhoe parts guy about a lower hose heater and he said he never heard of one.
Where would I find one?
I guess next I'm going to need to know what size hose right?

Jim Rogers

Started right up this morning, over 40°F no drag on the starter at all, no charger, no heat.
I'm off with a baker's dozen of scrap batteries to the salvage yard to turn them in for 24 cents a pound. I called two places they are both paying the same thing.
Will use the money to get the oil and filter to do an oil change while the weather is mild even though it's raining out right now. I found autozone has some 5-30w oil in a 5 quart jug that I was going to use. They said it was a synthetic blend. and they have a fram filter that crosses over from my napa number.

[chevytaHOE5674]

If your parts guy hasn't heard of a lower radiator hose heater then you should find a new parts guy.

My local napa has them in stock and I've even seen them at Autozone when I go into the "big city". ha

[Jim_Rogers]

I did find them online at autozone, but you need to know the hose size.
So I called the backhoe dealer guy back and asked him to look it up. I'm educating him about this.

This is the drain on the side of the engine:



 

This is the lower radiator hose location.

 

 

He told me that the hose size was 1 3/4" which is one of the sizes of the heaters available. However the heater looks longer then the straight section of the lower hose.
I don't know if it will fit or not.
I may have to put a loop of hose there in order to get some long enough to connect it all up. I will look at the package while I'm at the parts store getting some oil and filter.
They also listed a battery wrap heater but they say they are out of stock on those right now.

I'll let you know how I make out later on.

Jim Rogers

[thecfarm]

I had one of those radiator hose heaters on my Duster,slant 6. But I had more room to put one on than you do Jim.
If you could get the motor warm by a circulating heater that would make a big difference. Or does on my diesel tractors. I had to re plumb a 8 cyl radiator down to a straight 6. I use some 2-2½ inch copper pipe to get the job done. That size pipe was not cheap either.

[Hilltop366]

Well Jim I think your Case parts guy is right about a Case block heater. I looked online (coleman equipment) and it does show one for the 188 diesel but not for the 159 gas, It is too bad because the heater for the diesel is listed for $34.02.

There really is not much room in there on the lower heater hose for a heater, is there any place for one that goes in a frost plug?

[thecfarm]

I use to use a smaller one than this on my tractor.
http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/magnetic_block_heaters_mh1160_3954_prd1.htm

I would put a couple blankets over the top and the sides to keep the heat in and a light bulb by the fuel fliter.

[Jim_Rogers]

Well, I loaded up the trunk with 13 old dead batteries and went to the salvage yard.
We put them on the scale and 421 lbs got me $101.04 to use for parts.

I went to autozone and got a 5 qt jug of 5-30w and an oil filter in a package deal for $23.95.

I got the oil changed in the car on the way back.

When I got here, it was lightly raining but I managed to get the oil in the backhoe changed.

The machine started right up and I only let it run a second or two to warm up the oil and let it run out easier.

I ran it only a second or two after the oil change to make sure the filter was seated and not leaking.

I ordered a hose heater as they didn't have one on hand for me to measure and inspect. It was at the warehouse and should be in by noon tomorrow.
I'm not sure if I can install it without running some other hoses out and around and back to allow enough room to hook it all up. I'll have to see what I can do to get it installed.

I was at the counter and heard another customer as them if they could sell him a battery pad heater. The clerk waiting on him told him that if the store didn't have it then they can't order one.

I walked outside and stopped this customer and told him that I was looking to buy one also. And that they also have one called a wrap which goes around a battery. I showed him the paper I printed up and took with me to show my clerk so he could order my hose heater for me. And I suggested he should do the same thing, as his clerk told him he couldn't order anything without a part number. He said that the webpage said to go to the store and order the part from there. Which is what I read as well, and what I did. He couldn't do it as he didn't have the part number with him. He said he's going home and order the part online and leave the store staff out of the loop. He was very frustrated with the store clerk who waited on him.

I was thinking of ordering the wrap battery warmer, but it is only 28" long and my battery is 13" long and 7" wide. This wrap warmer is way too small for my battery. So I think I'll order the pad as well. And put it under my battery.

Maybe with a combination of low weight engine oil, a radiator heater, and a battery heater, maybe it will start without much fan fare (old saying), once they are all installed.

We shall see. (another old saying)

Jim Rogers
PS thanks for all your advice and comments.

Oh yea, while cleaning out the stack of batteries from the corner of the garage/workshop I found my long lost FF hat:



 

I lost this hat some years ago, and ordered a new one from Jeff.
I'll put this one through the wash in my ball cap washing holder, and dry it out by the pellet stove and we'll see how it comes out.

Hopefully as good as nearly new......

[chevytaHOE5674]

Be careful with the battery blanket/pad heaters, I've seen a few batteries start melting when they got too hot. Luckily they were caught in time....

[thecfarm]

I want to see the hat when it's all clean.  ;D

[Jim_Rogers]

I want to see the hat when it's all clean.  ;D

You will....

Be careful with the battery blanket/pad heaters, I've seen a few batteries start melting when they got too hot. Luckily they were caught in time....

How long do you have them on? so that they won't melt....

[red oaks lumber]

when your not using the tractor keep the battery in the house that way its already warm and fully charged.

[WDH]

Keep the hat in the house, too. 

[jamesamd]

Jim wrap and insulate some of this http://www.heatline.com/paladin.htm around Your hoses and battery.Be sure of the bend raidius and that vibration dose not abrade the cover.Plug in forget!

Jim

[Ljohnsaw]

Jim wrap and insulate some of this http://www.heatline.com/paladin.htm around Your hoses and battery.Be sure of the bend raidius and that vibration dose not abrade the cover.Plug in forget!

Jim

I used something like that back in 1978 when I lived in NY and could not afford a new battery - my Dad purchased it for some water pipes to thaw them out.  Got me through the winter and didn't need to get a new battery!

[thecfarm]

Something like heat tape.

[WmFritz]

Jim, I think your taking an awful big risk by washing that hat and losing value. What if it fades color or shrinks? I thinks you should wear it in its original condition. 

[Jim_Rogers]

 

 

WmFritz: Just think of it like the view above.......
That was when it was new.....

Jim Rogers

PS. Thanks for the link and all your advice and comments.

[Magicman]

Now that is priceless.   

[WDH]

You could get the hat dry-cleaned.  Be sure to leave the cup in a safe place  .