CTL worth the investment?

[NH Forester]

I'm looking for info from former conventional loggers (cable skidder/chainsaw) who made the jump to CTL. Good, bad, and ugly.

I have had all types of crews work for me when working as a forester but have only ever been a cable skidder logger myself. I'm seeing less work going to the cable skidder guys around here mainly due to production. The landowners want the $ quick or even up front. Bigger operations have more cash flow (even if it means a late payment or two to buy the next lot...) and can give a landowner $5-10K up front for a smaller job. They are in and out in a week usually whereas I will be there for a month or two.

I really like the fact that a CTL crew can be two guys and two machines and a very small footprint. Trucking equipment to a job seems easier than whole tree crews with several grapples, feller buncher, chipper, slasher, etc.

That being said my 540B is paid for....

[BargeMonkey]

 I still run a mixed conventional operation -cable-grapple-slasher and have a small forwarder which is handy sometimes. The problem behind the CTL game is your restricted with equipment, its either big or small. By me a leveling machine is almost mandatory, and heads are limited to a Rolly2 or a big dangle head like a ft-240 or 7000 log max and up. Ive seen a few guys with 120 deeres, and 6 wheel valmets but when you get much over 20" they slow way down.
Cost... its 250k for a decent used pair of machines, not including a dozer for road work. I personally see a mixture of the two types as the way to go, but cable is still king down here.

[loggah]

i don't know of any CTL loggers on this side of the White Mountains, where are you at? Don

[NH Forester]

The Maine side. Garland and McLucas Country.

Most of the big crews around here have grapples, feller bunchers, and slashers that usually feed a chipper too. The only cable skidders you see are the guys like me with a skidder and a pickup. That's the way I prefer it but I don't forsee the cable getting any easier to pull the older I get so I was looking for ways to improve production and reduce slipped discs.

[thecfarm]

The logger that I use is CTL. But he does cut with a chainsaw my big white Pine. He brought a hot saw this summer to lay down the trees,than uses a havester to delimb and CTL. He did have 2 havesters. Sold one and brough a hot saw.

[snowstorm]

i did it. if i had to cut by hand i wouldnt do it. it all depends on what you have for wood to cut. 20" or so on the stump and it works good. there can be a long learning curve. after you learn the system it is great. you are inside warm and dry or cool an dry. ac is a must have. the windows do not open. the down side everything costs more. plan on a gallon of bar oil a day or so. chains are not that pricey if you use 404. bars you will bend a few or a lot. so build or buy a press to straighten them. you have to be able to work on these machines yourself. some of the older computers parts are not available. i prefer a 6 wheel machine with a dangle head. same with the fowarder 6 wheel. with tracks an chains they will go almost anyplace. go watch one work. if you cant find one working come watch mine. i might have talked someone on here to go ctl a few years ago. you will also need a chain grinder 

[plasticweld]

A question you should be asking yourself is are you in this to cut wood or make money. I never really made money when my main concern was a big pile of wood. I am a small operation 4 skidders all cable but instead of investing in equipment I invest in standing timber. I pay cash up front and do a 2 year contract. I have been able to buy plenty of wood when I could pay for it. I struggled when I either worked for a mill or on shares with a land owner. I asked the same question about going mechanical just as you are doing and found that unless I was willing to invest a huge sum of money for a long time, that it may or may not pay off. I would say that if you were willing to invest $75,000 in working capital to buy standing timber that it would yield a much greater return than investing in any 75,000 dollar piece of equipment. I view money as just a tool of the trade. You can't log with out a chainsaw and you can't make money with out capital to invest and a chainsaw. Too many guys think that all they need is the equipment to make them a logger when it reality it takes the ability to buy right, market it effectively, and oh ya cut it down and skid it. The last part of the process is the least important in my experience This is a business and all of the things that make or break you are the same in logging as in any other.

[CTL logger]

I would say it is 2 guys with 2 machines we cut over 500 ton per week and worked almost 52 weeks last year. Unless it's really bad weather wise the processor works every day. I went the way of big machines 430 fxl Komatsu and 830 Timberpro forwarder the forwarder is a year old now and I wouldn't go back to a Norwegian style again, it pushed production up another 5000 ton for the first year I've had it. Just my .02 worth.

[Southside]

Its funny, there are as many answers to this question as you could imagine.  I run similar to Barge Monkey with a hybrid type set up, but its just me and that works very well. production is up, physically it is a nice mix of operating a machine and then pulling some cable and swinging a saw from time to time.  That having been said CTL has some beautiful equipment - my next move is to an 8 wheeled forwarder, especially after this winter - but sadly it won't be as new as the one CTL has.  That having been said, I have older equipment, which means I have learned a lot about how to work on just about everything.  At times that can be frustrating, but the way I look at it I don't have to chase lots all over the place.  I could work on the lot I am on for two years and still not have it done, has its good and bad, but for me it works.

Around here I am the lone ranger with CTL, it is all big outfits with rubber tired hot saws, and grapples - run in and run out, I can offer an option to land owners.

I moved up from a JD 540A, like I said it depends on how big and fast you want to be, and how much you can turn wrenches, get creative with repairs, and fabrication when necessary. 

[Ken]

I was in the same boat as you just 3 years ago.  I had skidder crews, pre-commercial thinning crews and did some forest consulting.  The life of pulling cable and swinging saw was getting old and a couple work related injuries were taking their toll. 

The learning curve for this type of equipment is very steep.  When my harvester landed I had never cut down a tree with one.  I started pushing buttons and pulling levers and after a while got one down.  Now if things are going good 4-6 cord/hour is what I aim for.  The downside to this equipment is repair work and lots of it on old machines.  We've averaged 1.5 days or repair work/week this winter on the harvester.  There will either be a new harvester, nearly new or a bunch of money put into mine over the next couple of months.   I'd rather make a payment and sit in the seat chopping trees than all the repair work I've been facing.  Good luck in your decision and feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

[NH Forester]

A wealth of information from my brothers with sawdust in their veins... I knew I would get some great info. Thanks to all that have responded so far. I am looking forward to more info and possibly some visits.

Harvesters being more complicated than forwarders go down more? I have turned every nut it seems on TJ240's and a little on the JD iron as well but computer stuff gets to me eventually. I can stand some IT work at my desk but in landing mud up to my knees with the bugs biting I just don't know.

Spend more on a newer harvester and get an older forwarder?

Scandinavian vs. US style? (my family moved here from Denmark in 1964. Great Grandfather was a forester.)

[NH Forester]

A question you should be asking yourself is are you in this to cut wood or make money. I never really made money when my main concern was a big pile of wood. I am a small operation 4 skidders all cable but instead of investing in equipment I invest in standing timber. I pay cash up front and do a 2 year contract. I have been able to buy plenty of wood when I could pay for it. I struggled when I either worked for a mill or on shares with a land owner. I asked the same question about going mechanical just as you are doing and found that unless I was willing to invest a huge sum of money for a long time, that it may or may not pay off. I would say that if you were willing to invest $75,000 in working capital to buy standing timber that it would yield a much greater return than investing in any 75,000 dollar piece of equipment. I view money as just a tool of the trade. You can't log with out a chainsaw and you can't make money with out capital to invest and a chainsaw. Too many guys think that all they need is the equipment to make them a logger when it reality it takes the ability to buy right, market it effectively, and oh ya cut it down and skid it. The last part of the process is the least important in my experience This is a business and all of the things that make or break you are the same in logging as in any other.

I have only ever met one cable skidder guy that had cash to buy woodlots and he had some skeletons in his closet on how it got that way. He was famous for buying an old farm, nuking it and then subdividing the land and selling the old farmhouse on an acre to a flatlander for more than the entire lot went for. I'm not saying you are like that at all just that cable skidder guys with cash or equity are few and far between. I know he was just doing what every other realtor or developer does but aren't we supposed to be good stewards as well? I disagree that the actual harvesting is the least important, I want to leave a healthy forest behind and feel that a major CTL selling point is residual stand quality. If we were all in it for the money we would have gotten out years ago and gotten into something with better margins. IMHO of course.

[loggah]

Well that sounds like a reply that a Forester would have !!! That will make a bunch of the little guys ,skidder owner operators,  will really respect you for belittling them, and their ability to make a living ,  myself included.

[BargeMonkey]

Well that sounds like a reply that a Forester would have !!! That will make a bunch of the little guys ,skidder owner operators,  will really respect you for belittling them, and their ability to make a living ,  myself included.

  I will 2nd that. Southworth milton got mad @ me when I went to pay for my landing loader, guess they aren't a big fan off 100's in a brown bag. Yeah some guys are strapped all the time, but if you look closely anyone who has made it the last 5 yrs and keeps growing must have some form of a clue. We call "foresters" thieves at home, not the loggers. Gotta bust on you buddy.  8)

[Texas Ranger]

Yet the thieves I help bust are loggers, different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[jd540b]

Hey NHForester, how's the old 540 been going for you?  I still have a few bits and pieces from it if you are ever over towards the coast. 
As far as CTL, boy-it's a big step....turn over everything a lot faster, $$, Woodlots, etc.  Need to keep the volume moving through them to keep afloat.  Breakdowns, bad weather and markets are easier to handle with no payments.  Especially when you have the diversity of consulting.  I've gone back to just cutting by hand with a paid for skidder and am glad I did.  Cut less wood and make more money.

[plasticweld]

Talk about getting ragged on for being successful. You must be one of the Occupy Wall Street crowd to even come up with that line of thinking. I have been doing this for 37 years. Would you be happy if after this amount of time that I was working pay check to pay check. At what point does a business man who starts out with nothing and end up with a million dollars worth of equipment ever get ahead? Most guys here make thousands of dollars a month in payments. If an old guy like me who has everything paid for can't pay for his timber up front he should look for a different line of work. While this has always been a tough business I have never been insulted like this for being a success. Maybe you should work the hours I do, invest the money that I do and take the risks I do before throwing rocks...Bob

[barbender]

You guys have some thin skin, if I am reading this right NH Forester is just pointing out that guys that are only running a cable machine and a chainsaw are only making a living. It seems most of you that are successful, making more than just a living, also have other irons in the fire. I've never known anyone in my area running a cable machine that made more than a meager living unless they had something else going on too make extra. Plasticweld, a lot of the reason we have so much mechanical logging up here is because of workmen's compensation rates, how do you afford to pay operators for 4 machines? I'm not doubting your business model, I'm just curious how it works out. Back to the OP, CTL is a totally different world than the cable skidder. Can you sell the 200 cords a week you will likely need to cut to make it? I think the switch to CTL is about as different as actually going into a different line of business you know nothing about, like buying a restaurant or : something. All that stays the same is cutting trees

[plasticweld]

Barbender you are correct about a bunch of things, I own three businesses not just one. Second the area I live in would not support the production of mechanical harvesting for a couple of reasons, one is terrain the other is markets.  Also wood lot size is large factor here. Never has all of my equipment ever been on one job, most of the time it is spread out on two to three jobs. My markets change and I have the ability to adapt and shift gears rather quickly. I am involved in the entire operation from buying standing to selling lumber retail. I also finance two smaller mills with my inventory and they work off of my money. I also sell furniture from left over lumber. I also own a construction company that does welding. That being said the logging end of this business started with a pickup truck and a chain saw selling cordwood and working until I fell down, from farm tractors to skid steers to skidders then log trucks and loader. You can make money in this business like any other. I had to work hard for what I have and having some yahoo infer I am a crook is not what I would call thin skinned I think I have worked hard enough and long enough to be *pithed when someone goes down that path. The advantage of the forum is that there is no fit all answer to any question. There are to many variables in this country to have a one size fit all. What works in your part of the woods may not work in mine. That is not to say that there are aspects of your business and knowledge that would benefit me. This should be the place to pass on  knowledge, lessons learned. and of success when we find it so that other may benefit. As long as you are not looking at the same wood lot as me I would help out any logger with anything that I could I hold not ill feelings toward anyone who puts food on the table in this business and pretty much expect the same from anyone else

[loggah]

My issue with  NHforester,is his  perception of Private property rights and the free enterprise system!!! like its a bad thing, maybe he didn't mean it that way,but thats how i read it!!!! Don

[Firewood dealer]

This is a good topic, to bad it has been hijacked.
I am a firewood dealer and also have some mechanical equipment. I have been contemplating selling my mechanical stuff and going CTL. The way I look at this is I will only have 2 pieces to move, maintain, fuel,( the last batch of off road was $3.93)and to get running in the winter. Right now I have 4 pieces to tend too. There was a CTL crew working up the road from me this winter and I stopped by to talk to them one day and from what I can tell they produce a fair amount of wood per day with a reasonable amount of fuel. The part that really perked my interest was the fact they worked 50-52 weeks per year. Those extra few weeks make a huge difference on the bottom line at the end of the year.

[thecfarm]

Firewood dealer,are you from Maine?
I use my tractor on mine land. I would not want someone here cutting wood on my land in April.

[barbender]

I guess I read it in a way that he meant that limiting things to chainsaw/cable skidder (which is how he is set up now) you will only make a living, and eventually the body can't take it anymore. Plasticweld, obviously you are not a guy that puts in his 8 hours and calls it a day! And you're right, things are so different in different areas, and I think one thing people don't consider is the volume of wood you have to move with a CTL crew (or a conventional mechanical crew for that matter). I would say the $250K low range estimate for decent equipment is on the money, on a five year loan, what are you looking at, $5K a month payments? That's a lot of wood. Who's going to haul it? You're going from 5 loads a week to 25. You pretty much need a mill that is partnering with you, the only people I have seen make it around here making the jump to CTL had a mill helping them out with contracts etc.

[Firewood dealer]

I am from Maine. I live in the mid-coast area.

[Firewood dealer]

As far as working in April. You could not work on my land April Or May! However down along the coast here there are quite a few acres of high ground because there is a lot of ledge. The trick is to find that high ground that's not on a posted road.