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Three Phase Primer...

Started by Warren, July 05, 2009, 08:40:13 PM

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Warren

O.K. Gents,   

Long term goals:  Reduce energy cost and maintenance cost by converting equipment over to 3 phase electric. And, have access to a larger variety of 3 phase equipment (eg: chop saw, hydraulic power pack)
Short term strategy: Use a diesel genset to provide 3 phase electric while acquiring and/or converting equipment to 3 phase to avoid or delay cost to install 3 phase transformers and paying monthly minimums for 3 phase service.

I recently came up with a diesel 100KW 3 phase genset.  The genset is capable of most voltages from 120v to 480, both wye and delta configurations.  Intent is to set a 3 phase service panel in the barn, connected to the genset.  Over time, connect 3 phase equipment to the service panel as a normal permanent installation.  When the time comes that I am back to full time sawing, pay the money to set the pole, install the transformers and connect to the utility 3 phase service.

I realize this avenue may end up being a little more expensive in the short haul (diesel power to generate electricity).  But it is workable for the moment from a financial stand point.  Basically, I am only paying fuel cost when I am actually sawing versus paying a monthly minimum regardless of amount of production.

So, my questions to the group, looking for your thoughts:

1) What is the most common 3 phase voltage for sawmill and wood working equipment ?  Initially, I was thinking 480v would be best because the higher voltage requires thinner (read "less expensive") wire.  I will have some longer cable runs, up to 100 cable feet, so wire diameter/cost is a consideration.  OTOH, there seems to be far more used/surplus equipment available in lower 208V/240V range than the higher 460V/480V range.  Also 208V seems to have the advantage of being able to pull one phase to run 120V equipment.

2) WYE versu DELTA configuration.  I have no clue regarding the pro's and con's of one versus the other. 

3) Is there any type of primer for dealing with 3 phase electric ?  I am very comfortable with 120V single phase.  Know just enough about 3 phase electricity to know that I don't know anything about 3 phase electricity. (well, except that 480V will kill you pretty quick if'n you screw up.) I am planning to have a qualified electrician do the work.  But I want to have a reasonable idea of what I am requesting and planning before I spend money on the wrong thing. 

If there are other considerations I need to think about regarding  3 phase, don't be bashfull, feel free to speak up.

As always...  All helpful advice AND constructive criticism greatly appreaciated...

Warren

LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

Dave Shepard

I think that you have a pretty good plan in place. As you know, the cost per kw hour is more for diesel than grid, but only if you are a consistent user, on again, off again, and grid doesn't work so well. The key to running a genset somewhat efficiently is to match the size to your load. A 100 kw is a lot of juice, so you will want to be running as much as you can to use the power you are making and avoid wet-stacking, i.e. running with too light a load.

Will you be replacing your mill, or converting to electric? A 25 hp mill, and say another 20 for an edger and blower will only use maybe half or your 100kw.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

woodhick

You dont metion what all equipment you are going to be running on 3 phase.   I currently run my shop equipment  on a 3 phase rotary phase convertor that I built.  I have a couple of machines with  7 1/2 hp motors and they run fine.  Course I am only runnig one at time.  RPC is 10hp.  I can't imagine that it would be cheaper to go with a diesel genset, but if you are talking larger motors liket  the mill and edger then it might.   On voltage  480 is pretty common on larger stuff and most motors  have the ability to switch the wiring arraingment and run on 240 or 480.   With the genset and hiring an electricain to do the wiring not sure how long it would take to pay off the investment?  Just be careful good luck with it.
Woodmizer LT40 Super 42hp Kubota, and more heavy iron woodworking equipment than I have room for.

lancek

well if you want the full inpact of useing your genset look into makeing your own fuel with cooking oil lot of good info out there and not that complecated to do! I use it in my gen. and it works fine just make sure you keep a good paper trail as the use of that much methonal may rise susp. with local law in forcement!

Warren

Dave,  Yeah, the 100kw is more than I will need right off the bat. But the price was right.

Woodhick, First additions will be blowers and hydraulic power pack.  Looking for a shaver or horizontal end grinder to make animal bedding out of slabs.  Current mill is a diesel, walk along, portable.  Long term would like to switch out for a stationary, electric, remote console.  Regarding hiring an electrician, I would have to do that regardless of genset or grid power to set up the service panel and do proper layout / design. 

Lancek, I looked at the home brew diesel last year when diesel went over $4/gal.  But, don't want to build up a life time supply of glycerin by-product.  Local rendering company runs their entire fleet of medium/heady duty trucks on their own bio-diesel.  They are in the fats and oil business, and they still have a hard time getting rid of the glycerin by-product.  Apparently the commodity glycerin market is real shy about the NaOH / KOH salts in the by-product.


Still interested in recommendations / comments regarding 240v versus 480v and Wye versus Delta configuration...

-w-



LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

Slabs

Our new member "sparky" is a retired EE.  Maybe he could answer some of the questions, especially about delta vs wye on motors.
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

DouginUtah


I am not an authority so I only know what I have been told.  ;D

Delta used to be very popular but the power companies now consider wye to be safer and some will only install wye.

I have only installed 208 wye but that was for lower horsepower motors. I don't know what would be best if using 25+/- hp motors.
-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

scsmith42

Warren, I'm doing something similar to what you're considering.

I generate 225KW from a Kohler diesel genset at 480V.  This feeds a 3-phase 480V panelboard.

One of the 100A breakers in the 480V panel feeds a step-down transformer, which provides 200 amps of power to a 240V 3 phase panelboard.  Thus I can operate both 480 and 240 3-phase equipment from my generator.

I use Square D I-Line panels and breakers, because they are common around here and I was able to buy the panels for a good deal from a close textile mill.

Long term plans are to use bio-diesel to operate the genset.

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

trim4u2nv

I almost bought a big generator but found a building with 3 phase installed already.  The property taxes per year are about $ 1000.00   The building cost about the same as a big generator.   If you got a deal on the generator I could see this working.  Only problem I could worry about is the generator itself failing.   One of my transformers was struck by lightning and the power company fixed it no charge the next day.  For safety I would look at a 208Y setup as the voltage to ground is lower.  If you went 480 delta you could really get hurt if you had a ground fault.   There is a huge surplus of transformers and wire on craigslist with the current downturn.  You can pick up 600v equipment cheap along with the stepup transformer if you look around.   The pay as you go plan and lack of demand charges makes a lot of sense.  Ground everything and use the right size breakers or you could end up like one of those crispy squirrels that jumps across the high tension leads at our substation.

Warren

Scott,
Thanks for the feedback.  I thought about a dual voltage set up via transformer, but wanted to try "simple" first.  I am still looking for main panel boards.  But I need to decide primary voltage first.

Trim,
I understand. The reason I am paying real money for an electrician to set it up is to avoid the crispy critter syndrome.  Thanks for the tip on cl.

-w-
LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

scsmith42

Quote from: Warren on July 08, 2009, 08:38:58 PM
But I need to decide primary voltage first.

-w-

Warren, a good friend of mine that operates a large generator service company advised me to generate the highest voltage that I would need, and step it down as needed, as opposed to generating a lower voltage and stepping it up.  He explained that the generated voltage was more steady by doing this.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

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