Pup trailers, yeah or nay ?

[BargeMonkey]

Another guy I know bought a diff truck and trailer, has had this one a while and wants it gone. I went the other night and looked it over, it's an older trailer but on hub pilot. I've never had one behind my truck, I think it will be handy sometimes, I have a 45ft log trailer but forget it on most of my jobs. wondering if any of you guys like them ? this one is on the longer side.  

 

[jwilly3879]

See them all the time here in the Adirondacks. Most of our jobs you can't get a tractor trailer into.

The guy that hauls our wood usually runs 13 cords of hemlock or 7500+ feet of pine logs.

He's pretty long but gets it to the landing a twisted mile of road in the woods.



Here's a video with a better look at the rig.

SAM 0501 - YouTube

The pup almost exactly with the truck tires.

[BargeMonkey]

 The guy who hauls my pulp to Finch is out of Day NY, he just bought a beautiful new truck at Tracy, northern spec'ed log trucks aren't cheap. I've never had a trailer behind my Sterling period, the plate was swapped off the R-model and I've debated it for a while, I'm hauling my own wood now to 2 diff mills since I quick selling to Wagner, just wondering how guys like them. I've got a Manac flat deck trailer with stakes we bought for moving pipe down at the dam job, being a spread axle and so long forget it on most of my jobs. 

[Skeans1]

You guys need to look at the mule trains or Aussie style trailers that can be loaded up for turning around on the job sites, once you go that route you'll never go back.

[2308500]

pup trailers we run here in nova scotia are mostly shorter. usually under 30 feet from hitch to tail with 2 bunks for 8 or 10 foot end to end or standard sawlogs.   air ride suspension make for a better ride with a lot less roll than spring suspension.
the lower you hitch is the better it pulls on the highway, but it can hamper manoeuvering in the rough sites.  24 to 30 inch hitch height seems to be a good compromise althought ours are at 40 inches. the difference is in the amount of sway at speed on secondary roads

we run 5 inch ball hitch for a no slack coupling and alot less wear than a pintle style hitch

[BargeMonkey]

 I've been toying with the idea for a while, they don't exist here used and if you see one it's been beat to death. I mainly want one for the firewood, I don't have the HP for a pup in the Mts where I live to load her right to the gills, Wagner would leave with 6800-7300 ft all the time with a wagon. 

[starmac]

I pulled one this winter. You may be all right with the weight of the loader on there dragging it in, but it will still drag the tires on pavement when empty. I had to load mine, I tried to drag it and would spin out even chained up with a locker, it is just a no go here. Our pups are different in that we run spreads with a turntable on the front axle, they can go about anywhere you can go with just the tractor.
As long as it takes to make a round we have to pull a trailer, or it would be money ahead to just leave the logs laying in the woods. That was the first time I pulled a pup though, as I am generally hauling long logs. My long logger was rigged up to pull a pup, but where we log there is no way you can pull the hills without spinning out, dragging a long log trailer and a pup, just not enough driver weight.

[Matt601]

I have never seen this kind of trailer this would be great for me to have to put another 15 to 20 tons of saw logs with. Im going to look in to having the shop here that builds trailers build one for me.  Thanks for the pics. 

[Gary_C]

I've got a Manac flat deck trailer with stakes we bought for moving pipe down at the dam job, being a spread axle and so long forget it on most of my jobs.

Do you have a dump valve on that rear axle?

I run a 48 foot spread and having that dump valve helps a lot. What helps even more is to put a third lift axle in front of that front spread and then dump the bags on the rear axle on tight turns.

[starmac]

Even if I could negotiate the curves to where we log with the spread, and I can except for the last 5 miles, I would still not have enough weight on the drives to get there consistantly, especially when the trailer doesn't stay in the trucks when the snow gets deep on the edges of the road, which is most of the winter, you have to be pulled out loaded anytime the trailer gets in the berm. Then if it would work, trying to talk the loggers into building a turn around would be next to impossible. With the pup, you can load it on the truck when empty and go and turn around anywhere the truck is capable of going without a trailer. That is with a spread that the front axle steers on, That closed tandem pup will not stay as close to the trucks tracks, and will require some wider turns.

[Riwaka]

Might want to add  an extra steer axle up the fron of the truck in post 1.
Australian Kennedy folding quad  (4 axle) trailer on twin steer Kenworth T659 tandem drive.  Tend to go for the twin steer to get more weight into the truck base.  (There is also the tri-tri  folding B double with a shorter wheel 5th wheel haul truck for flatter terrain)
Central tire inflation

Extreme Truckers go logging in a Kenworth T659 8x4 fitted with AIR-CTI - YouTube

This one's or one similar's yard  is not too far from where my sister works. Kenworth self loader lifts four axle trailer onto itself. (cab over twin steer)
NZ Kenworth K200 log truck lifting 4 axle trailer on - YouTube

[Skeans1]

Here's one style of mule train a half loaded one
loading our short log(mule train) trailer ez grade - YouTube
Here's one getting unloaded
Stafford Reload Cut-To-Length (Sweet Home, Oregon) - YouTube
Here's a place I get all my long logger gear from truck can carry 26 to 27 tons with our turkey hay rack.
Extended Bodies
The other two way are fully loaded showed there on that website or hopped up which is just the front axle of the pup on the back of the truck.

 

 

[mike_belben]

How do you keep from tearing up the brake chambers and hoses on stackers like that?

[Skeans1]

How do you keep from tearing up the brake chambers and hoses on stackers like that?

The tires just ride down the bunk, in the 60+ years of having trucks we've never tore off a can from loading or unloading a trailer now a pulp log is a different story.

[mike_belben]

So the axle housing sits on the framerails and the cans are mounted on the high side?  

[Corley5]

In Michigan you're not hauling wood if you don't have a pup ;) ;D

[Bruno of NH]

I'm not a logger or truck driver but my father in law I was good friends with.
Never went any place without his pup trailer said it was hauling a 1/2 of load without it

[Resonator]

Before buying, it would be a good idea to measure the trailer and overall combination length, hitched to the truck you'll pull it with. Check the axle spacing and how it will bridge the load, scale it out empty if possible too.

[starmac]

Mike, on my long log trailer the trailer tires sit on a ride built on the bunk itself. You pick it up high enough and the bunk slips right between the tandems, so that even In a wreck the trailer can not go forward or backwards, the ride where the tires sit, (only the inside tires) has some ears so it cant slide sideways, unless you bounce the whole thing several inches. The reach sits in a notch in the headache rack, I am not even required to tie it down here.

The pup is different, the reach still sits in the notch, but the front inside tires sits in a ride , and the rear has a bracket on the trailer in front of the steer axle that sits on a cross piece we put across the frame or the rear bunk on the truck, this holds the cans up away from the truck frame. I do have to tie the back of the pup down.

[mike_belben]

Some foreign terminology here.  

Reach = the trailer tongue tube?  

Ride = a saddle for the inners to sit in? 


I have never seen a pup log rig here and am surprised by it because i think it would be a good setup for some of our sites.  The commercial plantations have real roads and pulp runs off the mountain on 48ft tandem log trailers to bowater or rocktenn.  Pitt is the majority and they tend to have 8 posts, taller at front and shorter at back. 

The hillbilly logging is small lots done with knuckleboom and 4 poster straight truck.  From 1ton SA to class 8 tandem. 

I see both of these setups any time  i leave home,  many of them.   But never ever a 4poster hauling a tag.  I wonder if it wont bridge right.  My plan was 4 posts on my w900A [if i can ever get it here] rear prentice, then 4 post backhoe trailer behind it. 

[starmac]

You got the terminology right reaches come in single and two stage. I have a single stage 28 footer in mine, but could use a two stage 32 footer.

Different states have different bridge laws may be why you don't see many pups there, I think you guys can use lift axles on trucks though, where we can't. Our bridge laws are funny too, the short pups have to have a long tongue to bridge the weight.

[mike_belben]

Youll see lift axle on local dumps but if im not mistaken they do not count on the interstate.   Im told 74k is max on a straight tri axle.  Could be wrong.

[barbender]

Lots of different styles of "pups" on here. In Northern MN, a "pup" us pulled behind a straight truck with a rear mount loader. Axles on the pup are "wagon" style, the front axle steers. I don't know if the steering has an air lock on it. They're not very common, the guys that use them are custom haulers that have to get into a lot of bad spots. I've never driven one, but I'm told they can go anywhere and turn around, where a pickup can. I've had centermounts (the most common wood hauler up here) in some really tight spots, so I'd like to see what a truck and pup can do.

[redneckman]

I live in western NC.  Here, most most loggers use tandem trucks because of the places they are hauling out of.  We use separate loaders (not mounted on the hauling truck frame) When I was growing up I worked on my uncles crew.  It was not uncommon to be miles from the pavement in the mountains, on dozered roads that was hard for a pickup to make the turns.  There was no way a tractor and trailer could have gotten into the places that we did.  Back then, his tuck was a 70's GMC 9500 long nose.  It had a 8v71 in it and was a stout sunitch.  Twice, it rug a solid drive saft into coming out of holes loaded.  I loved the sound of that old Jimmy.

However, there was some times that he would land a job when a tractor trailer would be nice.  He eventually bought a 80's Mack with a 300+ engine.  He put a brand new Pitts log trailer behind it.  He used it as his primary hauler for about a year until he quickly found out that the set up was just not practical where he was hauling from.  So, he put a bed on the truck, a drop axle off the rear, and bought a pulp trailer.  The one he used was a design like someone else mentioned; two axles spread apart about 10'.  The front axle and tongue pivoted together, and the tongue was about 8' long.  Brakes on both axles.  This was the best of both worlds.  He could use the pulp when he had the space or could get it to the loader.  Loaded, he could haul more on the truck / pulp set up than he could on the tractor / trailer.  I do not see as many of these around now.  I always thought it was a good set up.

[coxy]

barge buy the wagon type they don't put a lot if any weight on the truck frame  like the pup trailer  ya they are a pita to back up but i have watched some of the guys turn the picker around and lift the pup/wagon off the ground to turn them around easer  you know who I'm talking about 

[starmac]

It seems like loading the empty trailer on the truck is somewhat of an east west thing. I think part of it is the length of the logs cut back east, pretty much cuts the long log setup out, but not sure why the pups are not more popular.

It is kind of like dump trucks, I have never seen a transfer set up back east.

Coxy, if you need to back one up empty you can pin the front axle, no harder than anything to back up.
I don't understand why a guy wouldn't just load it up on the truck, that way you don't have to have a bigger turn around, and you won't be sliding the tires every time you touch the brakes.

[Peter Drouin]

Have guys come and go here with a pup all the time.

[mike_belben]

Where are they hanging the grapples when they leave empty.. Just on the headache rack?

[Skeans1]

You got the terminology right reaches come in single and two stage. I have a single stage 28 footer in mine, but could use a two stage 32 footer.

Different states have different bridge laws may be why you don't see many pups there, I think you guys can use lift axles on trucks though, where we can't. Our bridge laws are funny too, the short pups have to have a long tongue to bridge the weight.

Our two stage is two 30', a few guys we know that do poles have triples or run a winch setup  on their steer trailers always cool to see a trailer running no reach.

[Corley5]

Michigan pups have locking steering.  Pretty easy to turn them around.

[mike_belben]

Are these a knuckle steer or a centered kingpin steer?  

[starmac]

All that I have pulled have been a center steer , you can actually turn the tongue all the way around facing the rear of the trailer if you wanted to and the air lines permit it.

[Corley5]

Centered.

[Matt601]

I'm going to check in to getting me one to load with saw logs. Set the boosters at 11 foot so I can load 12.5 foot logs on it. About turning it around I think I can unhook and turn it around with my tractor. If I load it with 12 tons I make out great!!! 

[barbender]

I've seen videos of Euro truck and pup combos that they turned around on the side of a mountain, using the air lock on the front axle of the pup. At one point the trailer is right next to the truck, it was pretty impressive!

[barbender]

Don't tell me you couldn't get where you need to go with a truck and pup😊-

Superb Skills - Log Truck 360 Turn Around Above Dangerous Cliff Edge - YouTube

[Matt601]

Here's one style of mule train a half loaded one
loading our short log(mule train) trailer ez grade - YouTube
Here's one getting unloaded
Stafford Reload Cut-To-Length (Sweet Home, Oregon) - YouTube
Here's a place I get all my long logger gear from truck can carry 26 to 27 tons with our turkey hay rack.
Extended Bodies
The other two way are fully loaded showed there on that website or hopped up which is just the front axle of the pup on the back of the truck.

 

On these with the buggy type if your truck it rated for and tag at XXX amount and your trailer is rated and tag at XXX Its OK to load both to max right? Because the load is not on your truck it will be on the trailer. Am I right about that? 

[Firewoodjoe]

I would think a pup like that would put to much weight on the truck. As others stated we run a pup with a turn table bearing or "gearman circle". It's about a 3-4 foot bearing rather than a fifth wheel plate. They lock and pull and back up very well. We run 5 axle pups and all 71,000 pounds is on the trailer no transfer to the truck. Then the 6 axle truck is 88,000. These are leagal numbers of course😁

[Matt601]

I would think a pup like that would put to much weight on the truck. As others stated we run a pup with a turn table bearing or "gearman circle". It's about a 3-4 foot bearing rather than a fifth wheel plate. They lock and pull and back up very well. We run 5 axle pups and all 71,000 pounds is on the trailer no transfer to the truck. Then the 6 axle truck is 88,000. These are leagal numbers of course😁

Do you have any pics? I have never seen a bob tali truck trailer like this and its got me thinking!!! I dont want a BIG truck because the insurance is so so much. I put 15 to 20 tons on my little truck but if I can get a Trailer that I can pull behind and put 15 or so on that be great. something that is stand along as for as Wt. 

[4x4American]

I get em all into the yard.  Seems the guys with the pup trailer can get around the best of the long ones.  Plus then you have the option of being short.  Bjt another popular option is a center mount:




Or just a regular t/t setup:




I'm tryna think who it is hauling your pulp from the town of day I live a couple towns over from there, what color truck?

[mike_belben]

Was anyone else scared for cliffhanger u-turn guy?


A cabover straight truck with full locks and rear loader with a wagon behind it would be the cats meow around here for a one man show.  As a hand cutter youd only need a saw and something to skid with.  Knuckleboom takes a lot of space and maintenance. 

[Skeans1]

Here's one style of mule train a half loaded one
loading our short log(mule train) trailer ez grade - YouTube
Here's one getting unloaded
Stafford Reload Cut-To-Length (Sweet Home, Oregon) - YouTube
Here's a place I get all my long logger gear from truck can carry 26 to 27 tons with our turkey hay rack.
Extended Bodies
The other two way are fully loaded showed there on that website or hopped up which is just the front axle of the pup on the back of the truck.

 

On these with the buggy type if your truck it rated for and tag at XXX amount and your trailer is rated and tag at XXX Its OK to load both to max right? Because the load is not on your truck it will be on the trailer. Am I right about that?

I think what you're missing on those trucks is all the trailer are loaded up or hopped up like the green one, it's been a while since I've had a mule train in but if memory serves the weight was split pretty good between the truck and trailer depending on axles. The turkey rack like we own is a setup that take a long log truck that you drop an insert between the two bunks to haul short logs with a standard truck trailer the trailer still carries more weight of the load on ours the truck is pretty light but the trailer is super light.
The last mule train I had in was 7 axles we averaged 33 tons with the setup loaded as high as we could go basically up to the stacks every load, my only complaint with a mule train I don't care for putting wood up to the headache rack.

[starmac]

Those closed tandem pups do not put all that much weight on the truck, in fact you can take weight off the truck when loading them if you want. Generally all the weight is pretty close to centered over the axles.

[Dave Shepard]

Have guys come and go here with a pup all the time.

Peter, that's the kind of pup I see around here. They all come out of NY.

[BargeMonkey]

I'm a little shy on HP compared to the others guys I see dragging a pup, kind of why I've held off. With my firewood processor going back inside I'm limited to 16' wood, be able to haul almost 2x as much and not ride around 1/3 empty. I've got 25' from headboard to picker, 12' isn't bad but it does get old and with a pup I think it may work better. 

[Matt601]

Those closed tandem pups do not put all that much weight on the truck, in fact you can take weight off the truck when loading them if you want. Generally all the weight is pretty close to centered over the axles.

That's what I was thinking. I seen one listed for sale in CA it looked neat it had 2 axes in back a one in front. Stand on its own. I was wondering if DOT had anything about loading a truck to max GVWR and Trailer to MAX. All I have ever had is bobtail trucks so I know nothing about trailers. I cut a lot of short logs 12.5' to 16.5' foot max it just seem it would be great to have a trailer to load too. The insurance would not be as much as another truck.   

[starmac]

Matt, I am sure not up on Cali registration laws, but many states make you buy combination plates for the truck and you register for the gross weight of truck and trailer. That said the trailer like you are talking about is 3 axle, some states allow for more weight and some do not for that extra axle. Alaska does allow us more weight for extra trailer axles, and I have pulled a pup (tanker) with the 2 axle closed tandem and one front axle, iirc the trailer allowed me 58,000 with a long tongue to meet bridge laws.
The pup log trailer I pull is just one axle front and back, so I am limited to 40,000 gross on it, where a closed tandem pup would be 38,000.
In Alaska we do not register for gross weight, I guess because we do not have any interstates and our gross weight depends on how many axles the trailer we are pulling has.
A 3 axle log pup or trailer would not work for me, because I can still only gross 38,000 on the drives, which does not give me enough traction to pull that much weight on a trailer. We can utilize them on freight and tanker trailers, because we use belly axles on the lead trailers and lift them on the hills, putting our driver weight in the 55,000 pound weight. Even at that it can get squirrely real quick when empty.

[Matt601]

In Mississippi I'm running farm tag 55K on my truck that's the most I can tag out a bobtail in MS. I have not checked in to it but I don't think I can get combination plates for my truck. I can't run interstates because I have a farm tag too. i stay on the back roads anyway to stay away from DOT. I'm going to check on it when I get home from work. There got to be a reason I have never seen this set up in MS. But if I can I'm going to get me one. 

Please forgive me for asking retarted questions I'm learning a lot from this page. When all you have ever seen and know is what is right around where you live that's all you know. I have seen on here so much I have never seen before.     

[Ianab]

It's interesting how the truck regulations in different places work. 

Locally, every log truck is hauling a trailer. Legally the trailer can carry more than the truck. Same number of axles, but no engine and cab, so it can carry more load. 

This lead to trailers being loaded too high. Legal weight wise, but they started falling over on corners, which bad for log trucks. 

So they increased the legal length of the trailers. Most of the rigs now will be one set of bunks on the truck, which is loaded full height, and 2 sets on the trailers but only 2/3 the height. This then has the axle weight even and legal across the vehicle. Most of the trucks have onboard scales, and the rules are enforced (too many of the overloaded trucks fell on cars)

This is what a fairly normal log truck rig looks like. Exact axle layout may vary, but you can see how the trailer is actually carrying more than the truck. And that load has more over the twin rear axles, compared to the single front one. Trucks always carry their trailers back to the landing. First it avoids paying road tax on the trailer, which is charged based on max loaded weight per km on a hub meter. If the trailer is being carried, it's wheels aren't turning, so you pay ~25% less road tax. And also a truck carrying a light load handles a lot better than an empty truck towing an empty artic trailer, which tends to bounce all over the place. 



And those are maybe 30 year old plantation pine logs. 

[teakwood]

Nice picture!  beautiful logs on this truck

[barbender]

Ianab, you kiwis can sure grow nice timber, fast!

[mike_belben]

In Mississippi I'm running farm tag 55K on my truck that's the most I can tag out a bobtail in MS.

You need to find out if the plate on your truck is covering the weight of the power unit only or if its power unit and any trailer.  Every state is different and many other states wont respect the laws of another *coughbecarefulinNYcough*
In tennessee we dont plate AG trailer at all so every pound goes on the power unit tag.  I think weight goes up to 80k max.  
DOT is gonna be looking at all tiers of compliance.  Total weight not in excess of total tag.   Weight on each part of the unit not in excess of its rating. (Edit: and bridge formula.  Thanks resonator)

[Resonator]

I drove 5 axle semi nationwide, and was registered for 80,000 lbs., and legally drove on any road that did not have a posted weight limit. Check with your state DOT what tags are available for different weights. Like I said in reply#17, measure your total combination length, axle spacing (bridge), scale the empty weight, and what individual weights on each wheels you can haul. (Steers, drives, tag axle, trailer, etc.) You could be legal on gross weight, and still get fined for being over axle weight. (learned that the hard way. )

[Matt601]

Resonator Im good on my axle wt with out a trailer. What I,m looking at is if I had a trailer that has front axle and back axles it stands on its own. When I load the truck to max its tag at and rated for could a pull a trailer that does not put any load on the truck loaded to max what the trailer is rated for. Say the truck is rated to 50,000 and the trailer is rated for 30,000 trailer total wt 80,000. Can i pull it loaded? total Wt will be over GVRW of the truck but the load on the truck is not over that. The trailer will have air brakes on each wheel and can stop its self. 

There got to be a reason I don't see these in MS. I have looked all over the net cant find a yes or no. When i get home from work I'm going to check on it. 

[starmac]

Matt, I know you can in some states, you will have to check into it with yours. If that is all the weight you want, you only want one axle on each end of the trailer. It counts as a spread, so good for 40,000, IF that doesn't put you over gross.

[Matt601]

Starmac All I have ever messed with is bobtail trucks on a tandem axle bobtail the drive axle is 20,000 and the rear is 36,000 in the state of MS. So if I did the same for a trailer I would be ok. 

What I got in my mine is building a trailer I can remove with my loader the log boosters and put a flat bed on to move equipment. It might be a pipe dream but something I'm looking at.    

[thecfarm]

Matt,I don't see pup trailers in Maine either. I live about 20 minutes from a paper mill and there is a big sawmill about 45 minutes from me.
I use to see some short ones back in the late 70's early 80's,but none since.