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Just a Thought On Pricing

Started by WyMan, March 05, 2003, 10:21:22 AM

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WyMan

As I was reading the forum stuff, I got a wierd idea.  The large corporate sawing and lumber companies receive lists of what sold for what price where and when.  They use this as a guide for selling their lumber and forcasting what to purchase for logs.

Would anyone be interested in a similar list for custom sawyers?  I think it would be good as long as it was designed to protect each sawyer's market - i.e. the sale location and customer would not be published.

Anyway, just a thought from a freed modern slave.
Just a thought from a freed modern slave.

sawyerkirk

I don't think most of us are afraid to say what we charge. I charge $.25/f for custom sawing, $.25 for logging/hauling and $.25 for drying and $.10/bf for planing $1.35/ mile for freight

SawInIt CA

I am in Central California and charge:
.30 - .35 per BF or
$50 an hour
$50 an hour for ot6her labor as well... Ie ripping logs, moving logs, scanning for metal.
$400 set up fee that includes the first 1000 BF
.15 per lineal for planing.
Molding is charged on an individual basis.
We do not have a kiln yet but am thinking of charging .25 per BF for that.

Bibbyman

I could tell you what we charge but I don't think it would be very helpful. There is a lot of variation in services between all of our operations.  Plus regional difference and economic pressure have and effect on prices.  

For example,  one of the Wood-Mizer owners near me only does custom mobile sawing and he charges one rate if he supplies labor vs. the customer supplying labor.  He has typical setup and minimum charges also.  We have our mill set up stationary and will not let customers help under any condition.  I don't even like them around when I unload and reload their trailers. (Safety reasons).  It's almost to the point where I would like to price myself out of the custom sawing market but do it more as a local service.  So even my price may be higher than the guy down the road that wants this business.

About 30 miles north of us is an Amish community where there is a sawmill under every other tree.  Prices for milling in that area is depressed to a point where it's not affordable unless you live without electricity and you go mug a hen every morning for your breakfast.  Then I hear prices near the big city are twice what I charge.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

WyMan

 ???  Wow, the silence here is deafening.  :o  

Thanks Sawinit and Sawyer Kirk and Bubbyman.

Are we all too independent to want to discuss money issues?  Or is everyone too busy making sawdust?  Or is there a concern about someone else getting into our own personal "sweet market"?  :-X

Bibbyman, yes there is a difference in locality and market.  There are variations of species and concentration of raw product available to cut.  A person in the red desert of wyoming might not get much business because there are no trees in the red desert.  A person having to cut the dirty cedar in Arizona might charge twice as much because the sand in the trees would ruin blades with one or two cuts.  Yes I understand some of that. :-/

However, I still think it behooves a person to know what is being done outside of their personal circle and my suggestion was more in line with a way to help each other in the running of our businesses. :P

Hmmmm maybe a specific location in the knowledge section for pricing - maybe it is just not that good of an idea?   ;D
Just a thought from a freed modern slave.

Jeff

I wish I had some input but I'm just the janitor. ;D

If n ya'll thought there was a benefit to some sort of price guide I could implement such a thing.

Actually, I have a database program in place for the forum but no applications for it as yet.

How is this scenario?

A form where sawyers and loggers can submit prices paid or obtained for logs, lumber, sawing services, what have you. You would have to be a member of the forum to add information. Although the information each would input would be detailed, the available output would be the averages for the whole.

I think, I said think now, ;D That I know how to make this database return averages by region or subject from a query.

Example. A member wants to know what some one is being paid for thier red oak FAS lumber in the northeast. The database will return the average to them but no paticulars on any individual entries.

Merit?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

WyMan

whoops!!!!

Sorry Bibbyman and Sawlnlt and Sawyerkirk!  I just noticed i mispelled your handles.  A thousand apologies!!!

Jeff B  That is what I was thinking of.  Sounds wonderful to me.  I guess we will see if any of the other forum members think it has any merit.
Just a thought from a freed modern slave.

Mark M

I like the sound of this but don't know how much I'll be able to contribute. I was thinking about charging 25 cents a foot and $25 to setup or move.For hourly I'm going to try for $50. Don't know if this is reasonable but there are very few mills in the state and I don't know what anyone else charges.

Mark

Tom

What I charge for custom sawing is no secret.  It is on my web page along with how I arrived at it.  No accounting procedures or complicated formulas involved,  just costs plus a fair profit. My concern has always been for my customers and what they should pay rather than how much I can get out of them.  This is a detriment to my success, I'm sure, and I'll never get rich without a "colder" outlook, but, it makes me happy.

I'm surrounded by mills that charge different prices and give valid reasons.  I'm contacted frequently by new bandmillers wanting to know what to charge and old ones who think they are giving away the store or blame too high a charge on no business.  I don't know what to tell someone about what to charge, only what I charge.

In different locations, wood is different, businesses are different, people are different, economies are different.  I can see it within the circle in which I saw without having to get too far away.  If I charged what the market would bare,  I would get a huge price on the beach where the million dollar houses are and a pittance from the people scraping to make tomorrow's dinner.

Would there be a concern that organizing prices may border on illegality if it were perceived to be for the purpose of setting prices?  I'm not a lawyer,thank goodness, and don't know.  There are seldom-used laws on the books that can get you in trouble if someone had an axe to grind.

About a year ago I raised my sawing prices from $15 setup/$150M/$15 for damaged blades to $20/$200/$20.  My reasons were economic as well as simplistic. My price design is intended to be non complicating for a customer to remember and such that he and I both walk away feeling good about the relationship.  While that is good advice in a general sense, it doesn't help someone in another economic situation decide what to charge.

What I do for a business, how I'm accepted by the society and how much overhead I burden myself with will differ from sawyer to sawyer and definitely region to region.  It's may be a starting point to follow someone else's lead but to design your charges after another's may be foolhardy.

I've learned to not pay attention when another sawyer gets upset that I charge less than he does.  I also don't get upset if he charges less than me.  It may bare a cursory consideration as to why there is a difference but how you run your business ultimately decides your charges.

beenthere

I think Tom is on to something that the anti-trust laws might cover, having to do with price fixing. I have been to meetings before where a lawyer opens the meeting with some pretty stiff warnings about not letting price information slip out, that could be construed as "price fixing".  I don't want to be shouting "wolf" but think the forum needs to be careful, as I don't know where this begins or ends, from the legal standpoint. Maybe someone on this forum has some better input to what is okay and what isn't. It may not be significant at all, yet it might me.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Norm

I had my wife look up the references to Anti Trust law which is the Sherman Act. The short story is that discussing what each other prices at is not a violation of it. You can check the references to it in West Business Law. Now agreeing to a common pricing structure would. She read the precedents to it for me but it's over my head.

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

I'm no lawyer either, but was going to mention this. If the Forum is going to address prices, professional fees, terms or conditions of sale, distribution, timing, or volume of production, territories, or customers etc, advice of legal council should be sought first.

General Rules regarding Compliance with Antitrust Laws would have to be developed for a Forum Antitrust Policy.
~Ron

Frank_Pender

Yep, big brother is watching all us little guys.   But Wherhouser can buy out all the mills in an area, control 90%plus ofthe Red Alder to force th price to levels of $675M to jerk around a few little fellas in the Pacific Northwest.  Is that anti-trust.  My dictionary calls it that.  "but who am I?  I am nobody, who are you?  are you nobody too? don't tell anyone, they'll banish us you know."
  
 Anyway:  Firs $.25 bdft
               hardwoods: $.235-285
                cedars: $.285
                hourly: $65.00
              consulting:  usually free 8)
          timber land management: % based on volume of work and duration of contract.   Usually negotiable. ;D

Frank Pender

Jeff

You put the fear of God in me. I don't want to even discuss it. :o

I'm sticking to identifying trees and wondering why our boards warp. ;D
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom


Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Aw-right......  Now look what ya went a done. :-/

chet

DanG,  this could take awhile Tom, cause nobody's owning up to having da key.    ;D     ;D     ;D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Frank_Pender

Perhaps he knows the shoe fits, jeff? ;D
Frank Pender

Tom

It's a good thing I hadn't done anything to be put in there behind that door with the rest of ya. 8)

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

ARKANSAWYER

  I am not afraid.  I get $10 to show up or move, $0.20 bdft to saw, $20 per blade damaged and $40 an hour to do any thing else but saw.  Some jobs that have a lot of little stuff or weird junk I just saw by the hour.
  I get $1.05 bdft for FAS red oak at the wholesaler and pay $250 mbdft for the logs.  I get $18.75 for 7x9x8 ties.  I get $0.40 bdft for my pine and pay $200mbdft for the logs.   I pay $320 mbdft for cedar and get $0.52 for the cants and $0.80 for boards.  Planed on one side is $0.10 bdft and on both side it is $0.20 bdft.   I saw mobile, at home and on weekends.  I build barns and repair log cabins and timber frame homes.  The when all of that is done I will be fishing, turkey hunting  or out in the deer woods taking a nap.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

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