Home electrical question(s)

wildbill · February 02, 2014, 12:58:08 PM

i bought a clamping amp meter to try to pin point where i am using electricity. I have always had high (in my opinion) power bills in the 9 years i have lived in this house. I do not have central heat and A/C. we do have some wall/window shakers but those very rarely get used. this winter the ceiling fans have all been off. My air compressor (5hp motor, twin cylinder pump, 100 gallon tank, it uses power) didnt work for about 6 months. i leave it off when im not in the garage. the "wood shop" is barely used on week days. our fridge is less than 5 years old (3 i think). Deep freeze is less than a year and is 3/4 full. Mini freezer is 1/2 full but is probably 15 years old. when the freezers were added to the house Emily says neither really effected the power bill more than a couple dollars.

none of the breakers feel warm at all to the touch.

first question: why do i have an average power bill of $180?

Second question: when the amp clamp is on the main neutral wire inside the breaker box it reads 4.0A. when i hear the compressor kick on for the mini freezer the reading DROPS to 3.1A. how am i using 0.9A less when the freezer turns on?

Ianab · February 02, 2014, 01:29:23 PM

If you have 2 "live" feeds (different phases) then the neutral only carries the difference in current between the two. You could have 5 amps flowing in each phase wire, and nothing in the neutral. If they are not "in balance", then an increase in draw on the lower power wire would effectively drop the current in the neutral.

As for tracking power use. A "killawatt" meter is more useful there. It plugs in the wall outlet, then you plug the load piggy backed in the back of it. It will measure the power used over time, so you can work out exactly how many kWH an appliance used over a full day.

Ian

ancjr · February 02, 2014, 01:35:32 PM

Turn off the breakers one by one until you find out which one(s) are causing the load. Should be able to discover the exact device/appliance on the circuit that is the power hungry one this way.

wildbill · February 02, 2014, 02:03:02 PM

i had a kill a watt thingie for a while. when i got a new fridge it used half the power as the old one when running. no real money savings though as neither seem to run all that often.

i checked all the breakers and turned things on and off to see what different things use.

kitchen lighting 2A (florescent lights all the way around the kitchen, 12 total i think)
living room fan .3A, with lights on 2.3A
bedroom fan .5, with lights on 1.6
turtle lights .5
bathroom light .4
woodshop lighting, no tools on .9
oven preheating 10.9 on one leg

i also have (3) 150W and (1) 500W halogen lights on motion sensors outside. they each turn on for 5 minutes at a time when someone walks in front of them but as a rule they are off all night long. my neighbors complain if they are on at night and they don't see anyone.

as much as i hate those twisty bulbs i think i will have to start there. looks like 3 100w incandescent bulbs uses 2A. i cant get my cheap amp clamp to register ive turned on a twisty bulb.

trim4u2nv · February 02, 2014, 03:32:28 PM

The trick is to balance the two hot wires as close as possible. Most meters bill on the higher of the two hot wires and double the amount. Also capacitors when used with motors or transformers will lower your bill also. There is a whole industry whose mission is to lower power usage.

Autocar · February 02, 2014, 03:43:56 PM

With all the cheaper stuff they make these days its possible that they ground the fram and neautral and if you plug it in wrong it will run to ground. Ive seen that on power tools !

Magicman · February 02, 2014, 04:30:00 PM

And then there is the hidden gotcha. The price per kwh usually decreases with usage, which means that as you lower your usage, the price per kwh could increase resulting in your electric bill being substantially the same. :-\

Ianab · February 02, 2014, 05:53:28 PM

Quoteas much as i hate those twisty bulbs i think i will have to start there. looks like 3 100w incandescent bulbs uses 2A. i cant get my cheap amp clamp to register ive turned on a twisty bulb.

Look for some LED lamps. They are still a little expensive, but they have reached the point where they will pay for themselves in saved power and replacement bulbs.

I'm going to replace my Compact Fluoros with them as the old lamps die.

Ian

ely · February 02, 2014, 07:13:26 PM

go look in your meter base and make for certain whats hooked up in there and where its going... the reason i say this is i had a man tell me once he owned a house that had a circuit wire 110 volts that went to a light over his kitchen sink. he was doing some work and had the service disconnect off and that light bulb was still on.
he looked and looked and never located where that wire came from, he thought it came from another house altogether, he just put a 110 window unit ac in the kitchen and never looked back. :D

beenthere · February 02, 2014, 07:33:25 PM

Quotehe just put a 110 window unit ac in the kitchen and never looked back

Hope he at least traced the wire and put a circuit breaker on it. Not knowing at what amperage that line would carry could be a disaster waiting to happen. But a breaker would not be hard to do... just tricky to wire it up to a hot wire that one can't disconnect.

js2743 · February 02, 2014, 07:47:53 PM

First place to start is if you have a electric hot water heater, its one of the biggest users. then the next thing would be heat, clothes dryer, cook stove, anything thats using 220 is gonna use the biggest part of your usage. Then there is the lil gadgets that uses power 24/7 clocks, radios, tv, any thing that stays plugged up.

wildbill · February 02, 2014, 07:52:43 PM

Ianab - i will be looking into LED but so far the return is too close to the cost, without anything going wrong.

tonight i have learned that florescent light fixtures use pretty much the same amount of power without bulbs as they do with bulbs. i checked the amps again of my kitchen lights. 2.0A all lights on. 1.9A all fixtures powered up, but with all bulbs pulled out. possibly tomorrow i may rewire the kitchen to bypass 6 of the fixtures we do not "need".

wildbill · February 02, 2014, 08:02:23 PM

js2743, my electronics usage is next to nothing. turtle pump, tv, 3 alarm clocks, 2 cell phone chargers and a home stereo have a draw of .2A. all of that is on the same circuit. that is with the TV off. i never checked usage on.

water heater is about 9 years old. one leg was pulling 22A. i dont know what they should use. I had the water heater on a timer for a few months a couple years ago but saw an increase in power usage. its cheaper to let the water heater do its thing by itself as it is smarter than i am. The clothes dryer was 26A and stove was almost 11A. I am planning on either making or buying a solar preheater to help with the water heater cost. as for the dryer, we cannot hang emily's clothes until she has been on allergy shots for a while. however she can hang mine and the kids.

r.man · February 02, 2014, 08:11:49 PM

The clamp on meter should always be used on the live wire. Best idea is to clamp next to the breaker to make sure you are on the right wire. If a load is 240 volt, or whatever your local voltage is, on a double breaker each of the two readings should be fairly close with the exception of a sub panel or a dryer. The sub panel breaker will read the complete load on one side of the panel which will probably be unlike the other side, and the electric dryer will read heat element on one side and heat element and motor on the other. A wattmeter is superior for cost since you have no way of knowing how long items are running. The clamp on works well for identifying when things are running that should not be. If you are the type to keep old bills you should compare past usage with present to see if you are actually using more or the price has risen. Having said that conservation is always good but in general most people need to get rid of the high use extra items, beer fridges, underutilized freezers and teenagers. I have been using 15 cents per kwh use as a general number for a few years and I am now going to use 20 since all the fees have been going up. If you want to know what you really pay per kwh to judge how much it costs for things like an extra fridge take your total cost for a month and divide it by the total KWHs. Ignore the listed price per kwh since it doesn't cover delivery cost, taxes etc. Doesn't run much is not a good answer for an automatic device when deciding if it is needed. If it really doesn't run much and you want to save money unplug it.

r.man · February 02, 2014, 08:21:56 PM

Wildbill the HW heater is the worst power guzzler next to AC units that you can get. This is the perfect place to use the clamp on if there is a potential problem in the heater. If it is 240 volt then both lives should read about the same. If it is two elements then you should read the wattage on each, turn the one thermostat up and the other one down and check the draw on the element that is live. Should be about the same on both sides. Reverse and repeat. With a stat off that element should be drawing 0 on BOTH lives. This is the important one. If the element is partially burnt out and going to ground through the water one half of the element may draw power 24/7 hot or not. This is the sneaky one where people say their bill is high but not terribly so. On a bottom element they can go undiagnosed for years.

wildbill · February 02, 2014, 08:28:11 PM

r.man - i have been getting these numbers using a clamp on meter, inside the breaker box, as close to the breaker as possible.

we do have a small freezer that can be combined with the larger freezer, which i will try to do Wednesday.

Emily is going back 13 months and writing down our usage for each month so we can hopefully see our improvements.

i do know when the water heater is off there is 0 usage. i had to wait for my kid to take a shower for it to kick on and see it actually turn on. I will check the elements tomorrow like you said to make sure they are both the same.

Holmes · February 02, 2014, 09:41:40 PM

You could ask to have your meter replaced. Can you read your meter, turn off your main breaker for 6 to 12 hours and see if the meter reading changes. That would indicate a faulty meter. Maybe ask the electric company to check the meter.

scgargoyle · February 03, 2014, 07:30:01 AM

Reconsider the LED lights. They last for many, many years, so not only do you save energy, you also save (eventually) on buying light bulbs. Still, buying 20 LED units for the recessed lighting in my new house was a painful experience. I HATE CFL's, and refuse to buy them.

One thing to check is how much sediment/minerals there are in your water heater. FL water is high in minerals, and as they build up, the water heater gets less and less efficient. I replaced one once that was about half full! The bottom element ran continuously without any benefit.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · February 03, 2014, 08:31:43 AM

I don't know your power company or how that calculate but some companies estimate your bill.......if they still do this.
The gas company in our area still estimates.

wildbill · February 03, 2014, 08:46:08 AM

i haven't taken LED's out of the running yet. i just need to sit down and figure out my math. i just hope i have better luck with those than i have with cfl's

our meter is read by radio. the meter reader truck just drives down the street and gathers all the numbers i guess.

Rockn H · February 03, 2014, 09:05:54 AM

Wildbill, I may have missed it, but have you kept up with the total KWh per month that your meter loop says you're using? Then compared that to what you think you should be? What does your bill show that you're being charged per KWh? We've got two electric companies in the county here, one's a Co-Op the other isn't, and there's a difference in their usage charges. There used to be a few sites where people could compare their monthly usage. You may also want to check and see if your power company offers different types of meters. Some companies offer different types of "economy" meters and even "all electric" meter packages.

One thing I've found with electric hot water heaters is that they are cheaper if you run them wide open. Turn the temp up to around 180 deg. It doesn't take as much hot water to wash, shower, etc because you're using more cold water. So the water heater has less "new" water to heat up. It takes less electricity for it to keep it's temp. than it does to heat up a new tank full everytime you "run out" of hot water.

pigman · February 03, 2014, 12:54:57 PM

Rockn H, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think what you said in the last paragraph is correct. Of course I have been wrong on more than one ocassion.

Magicman · February 03, 2014, 02:16:12 PM

It is a very good possibility that you will find a burned out element in that water heater.

trim4u2nv · February 03, 2014, 02:51:45 PM

In our old storefront we used neon lights which at commercial rate was about $20-30 per light per month. We could shut 2 lights off and save about $60 / month. We found a side delivery doorbell not working and traced it down to a bad transformer about the size of your fist. We removed it and our bill went down $40 / month. Put a wireless doorbell on the front announcer as well as the delivery door and saved about $480 / year. So check the power usage on all continuous duty transformers on doorbells, furnaces, ac units, fluorescent lights ect. you could be in for a shock.

Larry · February 03, 2014, 04:32:05 PM

It might be helpful to know how many watts your using. Maybe I missed it. Dollars don't mean much...1/4 of my bill is taxes, fuel charges, happy hour expenses, and etc.

I've got a old meter to check monthly usage on a few things. I was considering solar hot water assist for a while but the pay back was too long.