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Possibly Purchasing an LT-28 - Need you guys opinion

Started by Rob in NC, April 11, 2016, 12:45:26 PM

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Rob in NC

I am looking at purchasing an LT-28 given the current sale they have going on. I am 32 years old and the manual doesn't scare me too bad.

The million dollar question - do I need hydraulics? I know I will get varying answers but I value your opinions b/c you guys use these everyday.

What I need it for:
I am looking for a mill for the purpose of doing some things around the farm for myself as well as some things I want to incorporate in a home I am planning to build in a few years - im sure I will sell some wood to offset the costs of the mill but im not buying the mill solely for an income - my day job takes up way too much of my time to be able to devote enough time to the mill to make much return on it other then selling lumber I've cut in my spare time.

Cost factor:
If I thought I could completely pay for the mill in a relatively short amount of time (2 years or less) just selling some boards from time to time I wouldn't mind going to the cost of the full hydraulic because I plan to have this mill a long time.
Basically I can swing the cost of the LT28 right now at the sale price and not be worried about the return (just sell boards when I get the chance) but if I went to a hydraulic mill I would need to start recouping some costs quickly. Part of me says the hydraulics convenience years down the road would be worth jumping into some quick hustles to get my input costs down closer to the cost of the 28 in a short amount of time but I am reluctant to tie up that much cash at this time. Financing is out because I don't finance luxury's - if I cant pay cash I don't buy it - if it was for business and to solely produce income it would be a different equation.

Experience:
The piece of information that I'm really missing is I haven't spent any time running either mill and I don't know the time/labor/enjoyment pros/cons with a hydraulic mill vs a manual. I have had some guys that cut for an income tell me there are no other mills in their opinion than hydraulic - some of them bought manuals and sold them in a month to go to hydraulics. This I could appreciate if its something you rely on for an income - I wouldn't even question the decision then. However I am buying to enjoy using the machine for things I want to do when I have time.

Like I said I don't plan to make a living with it but I can anticipate the frequency I am going to use it given my interest and number of projects I come up with as well as the fact that it may last me 20+ years. I don't want to get 10 years down the road and regret not buying hydraulics.

Power:
Is the LT28 with the 25hp engine enough to be able to breeze through anything I want to cut? Hardwoods and all? Given I am maintaining the machine properly and using sharp blades. I will mainly cut pine and heart pine but there will be some oak and other hardwoods done from time to time and I want a mill that will keep up and not frustrate me. 

My last question..
Woodmizer: have you got a sale planned on the hydraulic 35 this year? lol

Im planning to go to the Sawmill expo in Richmond this year to try and get in front of some more mills but if I go with the LT28 I will need to put down a deposit to hold pricing before I go to the show.


-Rob
2012 Lt 35 manual

Saga Dan

I am by now means an expert or have a great deal of experience in the milling side of things, but will give you a little bit of information that was given to me when I purchased my manual LT40.  Spend money on a log deck package since the cutting will be the least amount of time you will be doing on your mill.  It is the positioning, turning, and adjusting that takes the time. The 25hp will be just fine for what you plan to do with it.  With the log deck package you can load and turn very large logs to get them cut into boards.  Last spring loaded turned and cut a 14' 36" red oak on my mill.  Was it fun? No.  Would it be anymore fun with hydraulics?  Maybe maybe not. 

Just taking a break from a resewing project I am working on...  Installed a new band and on the second cut I tried to shorten my last back stop.  Not it shines in the sunlight.  (I even checked the height and sighted down the cut before starting.  Watch out for people stopping by just to adjust your back stops while sawing. 

Which every way you go have fun and you can alway sell the manual mill and purchase a hydraulic mill in the future.  They do hold their value as long as you take care of them.
2014 LT40 Manual; XP346; XP395; Logosol M8

WV Sawmiller

Rob,

   I bought my LT35HD there in Albermarle and getting the hydraulics is the best move I made. I was going to get a manual mill but my wife and friends talked me into hydraulics and I sure glad they did especially since I mostly work alone.

   I believe hydraulics encourages you to make better lumber because it is faster and easier to move the log and cant when and where needed. You can likely make just as good a lumber with a manual mill but taking the time to rotate and reclamp a log or cant that is starting to rise due to tension in the log is less likely with the extra effort involved.

    Good luck and welcome to FF.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

AnthonyW

This will depend on how much you will use the machine and how much time you want to spend using it. I have an LT25 (predecessor of the LT28) with all the bells and whistles that were available at the time. Here are the things I wish I had on the LT25, in order of my necessity:

1) Power head lift. Lowering the head doesn't bother me. Spending the 3+ minutes it takes to raise the head back up to start each log is tiresome (5 cranks per inch per 5 seconds * 30" log is a lot of cranks). Furthermore, additional cranking for edging. I have learned to do ALL my edging at the end of ALL the logs, not just at the end of each log. Due to the lack of the head lift, plan on removing a board or slab after each pass or count in more up cranking.

2) Debarker. With the orientation of the log bunks, head, and blade travel you cut through a lot of bark. The LT25 does not support a debarker. The LT28 might, if so spring for it. You can figure the return on investment easily. My estimate would be one less blade used per day; dropping from 3 to 2 at the current approximate aggregate cost of $10 per sharpening.

3) Power loading. It takes a lot of cranks to load the load. I plan on adding a winch this year to do that job. A winch or hydraulic would be much better. Since the con of the hand winch is primarily time and (lack of) speed, this feature (or lack thereof) checks in at #3.

As I mentioned, this depends on how much you will use the mill and how long you want to spend using it. None of these its or lack of items are a show stopper. I love the LT25 sawmill. Mine will turn 20 years old next year (I am the third owner and have only had it 3 years) and everything still works very well on the entire system.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

starmac

No experts, but here are my thoughts anyway. From what you have said I would go with a hydraulic mill for at least two reasons you have described.
1 is your limited time to run it, it is my thinking you will run it more (saw actually in the log) with a hydraulic mill than you will with a manual.
2 You are talking keeping it long term, many, many folks buy a manual and upgrade in a year or two and there are valid reasons for it. We all are young, strong and full of energy, but speaking from experience on this matter, this does change over time. At my stage in the game I would rather not have a saw, than have a manual fir all the good it would do me.

You have another option from what you have said. There are low hour mills up for sale pretty regularly, these are iron and last a lifetime if maintained, You are talking cash purchase, I would not doubt, unless you are in a big hurry, that you could get a nice low hour hydraulic mill for the same or less than you are talking about spending now, if you have cash in hand and are ready to buy when one comes up.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Bruno of NH

I have a manual mill what I would like is power up/down and power feed. I have a helper most of the time so log turning is not that bad for me .
Don't get me wrong I would like a hydro mill but had to buy what I could handle on cost .
Bruno
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Remle

Don't over look the used market for a Woodmizer sawmill, click on the Sawmill Exchange Box at the top of the page and see if any thing, they have listed might interest you. Working alone the hydraulics saves time and as they say time is money..

47sawdust

There is way more to saw milling than just the sawmill.Given the fact that you have a day job I don't think you would be able to go out and get sawing jobs right off the bat to help pay for a new hyd. mill.There is nothing wrong with easing into this business.It is a lot of work,you need support equipment and there is a learning curve.Buy what you can afford and give it a go. You might also give some consideration to a used hyd. mill.People are always getting done or trading up.
Best of luck to you.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Rob in NC

thanks for the quick advice - very helpful answers

I meant to add the 28 I am looking at would have the power feed as well as the log deck package

I would LOVE to find a well maintained used mill for sale within a reasonable distance - I had a deal fall through Saturday on a reasonable priced 2006 LT40 Hydraulic (decided not to sell). That would have really been a win-win for what im looking for.
One problem is I never see many used mills within a realistic driving distance - I cant strike out 500 miles to kick tires and find something that was less then described. Your right they hold their value - i don't know what people get but I see what they ask for them and the ones that I have found have been 20% less then a new one and 15 years old - I would pay the difference to have new before I paid that much for a machine that old. Another example - I saw a 2012 LT28 just last week here locally for $13500 with 300 hours - a brand new with the log deck and power feed is $14177 after taxes with the bigger engine.
Another thing I am very particular about maintenance on all my equipment and its not worth 20% off to inherit someone else's abused machine that I would be constantly dealing with an issue (I have enough of those) but if it was priced right where I had some wiggle room should issues arise then I would be very open to buy used.

Another thing that throws me off is their number system - their new mills seem to all be different numbers. I have seen a used LT40 that compare to a current new LT15 as well as some numbers that don't even exist now in their line.. it can be hard to compare apples to apples for the untrained eye.
2012 Lt 35 manual

landscraper

I had an LT30 manual everything except up/down/powerfeed that I bought used as non-operational, now I have an LT35HYD that I bought new.

Once repaired, the manual mill was fine, cut good lumber, and I sawed plenty of logs, almost exclusively for my own use, but it was a lot of work at times and sometimes a slow process.  I had to have a "helper" not just an "offbearer" if I wanted to have a very productive day.  I shied away from logs at the upper end of the capacity just because of the difficulty in turning and slabbing etc.  But, until I was in a situation to buy a hydraulic mill, my manual mill did fine, and I learned a lot on it.

Then I got the hydraulic mill, and holy cow, everything changed:  I started sawing for other people, and I started sawing lumber and specialty products for resale, and I started sawing the bigger logs - all because it was easy to do so with the all-hydraulic log handling.  My mill is about 2 years old, and has more than paid for itself sawing as a side business.  Now I want a LT40Super, and if the right deal comes along I will buy one, because I know I can make it pay for itself and make me money.  If 1 hydraulic pump is good, 2 has got to be better  :D

On the 25hp power issue, I'm sure more is always better, but if you use the right blade, sharp, you will be fine.  I cut white and red oak logs in the 18"+ range regularly with 23.5hp and a 4degree blade, and a few oddball logs bigger than that.  I can saw fast enough to keep my offbearer hustling.

I bet a deposit is transferable to the next model up if Richmond changes your mind.  I would get hydraulic if you think that a saw is a long term asset for you.
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Rob in NC

Quote from: landscraper on April 11, 2016, 06:09:54 PM
I had an LT30 manual everything except up/down/powerfeed that I bought used as non-operational, now I have an LT35HYD that I bought new.

Once repaired, the manual mill was fine, cut good lumber, and I sawed plenty of logs, almost exclusively for my own use, but it was a lot of work at times and sometimes a slow process.  I had to have a "helper" not just an "offbearer" if I wanted to have a very productive day.  I shied away from logs at the upper end of the capacity just because of the difficulty in turning and slabbing etc.  But, until I was in a situation to buy a hydraulic mill, my manual mill did fine, and I learned a lot on it.

Then I got the hydraulic mill, and holy cow, everything changed:  I started sawing for other people, and I started sawing lumber and specialty products for resale, and I started sawing the bigger logs - all because it was easy to do so with the all-hydraulic log handling.  My mill is about 2 years old, and has more than paid for itself sawing as a side business.  Now I want a LT40Super, and if the right deal comes along I will buy one, because I know I can make it pay for itself and make me money.  If 1 hydraulic pump is good, 2 has got to be better  :D

On the 25hp power issue, I'm sure more is always better, but if you use the right blade, sharp, you will be fine.  I cut white and red oak logs in the 18"+ range regularly with 23.5hp and a 4degree blade, and a few oddball logs bigger than that.  I can saw fast enough to keep my offbearer hustling.

I bet a deposit is transferable to the next model up if Richmond changes your mind.  I would get hydraulic if you think that a saw is a long term asset for you.

I think you should upgrade to that 40 and sell me your 35  smiley_idea smiley_beertoast

I figured they would be pretty flexible with the deposit (they said refundable no questions asked) It would take a lot of convincing for me to switch brands - from what I have seen I am pretty sold on woodmizer but I want to go to the show to take it all in anyway.
2012 Lt 35 manual

Magicman

Quote from: Rob in NC on April 11, 2016, 06:09:17 PMAnother thing that throws me off is their number system - their new mills seem to all be different numbers.
The numbers and letters following the LT40 describe hydraulics, engine type (electric, gas or diesel) and hp.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

ncsawyer

I grew up on a 1994 Manual LT40 that my dad bought new.  I sold it a year ago and bought a new LT40 hydraulic. 

The one thing that will be important with the manual mill is support equipment.  My manual mill had the log deck package, and the only thing I used was the manual toe boards and occasionally loaded a log with the winch and ramps when it was too big for the tractor to pick up.  The turner was always too slow and in the way...I took it off.  I don't think we ever used it to turn a single log in 20 years. 

On my manual mill (with the help of my tractor) I have sawed some monsters, and I have had days with production numbers around 3,500 bdft.  Manual mills have the capability to keep up with a similar sized hydraulic mills in certain conditions. 

The big pros for a manual mill, especially for someone in your situation, is very low maintenance requirements.  There is a lot less to go wrong on a manual mill.  In 20+ years the only thing I ever had to replace on my manual mill were normal wear items like belts and I had to rebuild the hydraulic tensioner once.  No pumps, cylinders, valves, hydraulic oil, hydraulic lines, etc. to worry with.  A manual mill will not depreciate as much as a hydraulic mill for that very reason.

I think you are on the right track with the manual mill.  The 25HP should be plenty of power to cut whatever you come up against.  My old mill just had a 18HP Briggs and cut anything I ever asked it to.     

I don't think you will ever regret getting a nice manual mill.  You might decide you want hydraulics down the road as your needs could change.  If that is the case...nobody ever said you can't have two mills! ;D
2015 Wood-Mizer LT40DD35
Woodmaster 718 planer
Ford 445 Skip Loader

47sawdust

Rob,
I have a 1997 LT30 manual mill.It came with a log deck package.As was stated in the previous post turning or loading logs with the manual winch is too slow.I added a Warn 3700# winch with remote and it works great for turning the logs that are too big to turn by hand,small logs I turn with a cant hook.I have a log deck so loading on to the mill is not a real problem.A good used LT30/40 would be easier to add WM components too.I added a few to my mill and it has worked better than I than I thought.
 

 

WM power strip to energize winch and hyd.pump



 

Winch to turn and load logs.There are more mages in my gallery,but this will give you some idea that just about anything is possible.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

outpost22

Just a new(er) guy here with my take on it so far.  I bought a manual mill with no illusions on what I could do with it.  It was a better option than a chainsaw mill for me.  It also belonged to my elderly neighbor and he didn't use it for the last 3 years.  It is also not portable which to me is of no concern as I don't plan to hire out except to my wife.  :laugh:  Finding a used hydraulic sawmill (or any sawmill) out west here within driving distance (less than 300 miles) is virtually impossible.  You probably have a lot more options than I did in the used market.

If you're 32, you have the luxury of choosing and operating each type easily (assuming no physical issues).  If you're on a farm, I assume you have a tractor?  This could be a great asset with a set of pallet forks for the bucket in moving logs around. I have found with my new grapple attachment that I can not only move logs, but turn them quite easily on the sawmill.  That is the biggest issue I have with the manual mill-turning big logs, so I've solved that problem. The most time consuming issue is setting the log dogs after turning them.  I am usually setting 2 or 3 outside per turn (depending on log length) while the inside dogs remain locked in place. This requires a lot of labor compared to hydraulics. When my buddy helps me it goes much faster as he sets the dogs while I adjust the saw head height.  The best part about a manual mill is it beats a chainsaw mill, and is very easy to maintain and not a lot to go wrong parts wise.
As to power, I use a 13 HP Honda engine and it has sawn through everything thrown in its path with no issue. However it doesn't have to power a hydraulic pump, etc.  I would  think the power you're looking at would be fine.

Since you're looking at a very long term use, I would suggest hydraulics as it will certainly pay off over the years.  I may only mill another 6-8 years whereas you might be doing it 30 years or longer.  Buying something that will assist you over that many years will never be a mistake.  It would be wise to look for a used one as it may be an option in your area.
Creating one more project one at a time.
Burg Bandsaw Mill
Stihl 010
Stihl 210
Stihl 251
Stihl 461
Husky 350
Kubota L3800

Stuart Caruk

Now that I have one, I'd never even consider a mill without the hydraulics. I find myself loading logs that max out my mill more often than not, and there is no way I could manhandle them.
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

Verticaltrx

I do about what you are wanting to with my LT15, plus saw lumber to build barns with for my construction business. I too was not going to borrow money so I bought what I could afford and have not regretted it.

The one thing you really 'need' with a manual mill is something to load it with and turn big logs. I have a large skid steer with a grapple, so loading and turning big logs is a non issue. Small logs (anything under 24") I just turn with a cant hook, which can be as fast or faster than a hydraulic mill can turn them. A tractor/loader with a set of forks would be good as well, just anything so you aren't physically wrestling with large logs all the time. That said, 90% of the logs I saw are 20" and under, so once I load my log deck I really don't use the skid steer.

Another thing is that the manual raise/lowering mechanism on these LT15 and LT28 mills is really excellent, a big improvement over previous models. It is gas strut assisted and has an indexing wheel for precise repeatable measurements, which makes raising and lower the head a breeze. Combine that with power-feed and really the only physical part of milling is loading and turning the logs.

I have the 19hp engine on mine and it does well for me, so 25hp should be fine. With power-feed and a well laid out setup I can mill 200bf/hr or more by myself, sawing a mix of framing lumber and siding. With a helper or two 250-300bf/hr isn't out of the question, which I think is pretty good for a small manual mill. It literally paid for itself in the first month of sawing, can't beat that for a ROI. 

Wood-Mizer LT15G19

Rob in NC

some more great feedback - thanks guys

I have an 80hp front end loader on my tractor with forks so loading is easy

Im also in the custom building business (currently run jobs for a family business - however I am a licensed contractor and will venture into my own at some point - again a reason i cant tie up a tremendous amount of capital in the next few years) however its crossed my mind that this may be an asset down the road as im sure it will play a role in that to some degree when the time is right. This makes me lean a little more toward the hydraulic side. Basically the only negative to the hydraulics is tying up cash at a point in my life where cash is not easy to come by and much needed at times.

Ive also considered that this would be a long term investment given my age and considering how many buildings I have in my future around the farm with the house we are going to live in included. Another check mark to the "spend the money and get something you will be happy with for a long time" side.

This is really an equation with no wrong answer and as with most things I am guilty of overthinking it but your feedback has helped tremendously.
I really need to run both of these machines for myself and I think that will help sink the decision. Then I can make the distinction as to whether the hydraulics would be a luxury or a "must have". I can already tell if production was a concern it would be a "must have" from the standpoint of saw time in the wood. That along with preset head controls.
2012 Lt 35 manual

Rob in NC

Quote from: Magicman on April 11, 2016, 06:24:39 PM
Quote from: Rob in NC on April 11, 2016, 06:09:17 PMAnother thing that throws me off is their number system - their new mills seem to all be different numbers.
The numbers and letters following the LT40 describe hydraulics, engine type (electric, gas or diesel) and hp.

Thank you sir - makes sense
2012 Lt 35 manual

rl

   I have a lt40hdg28  the hyd. make life easier . can't imagine turning logs by hand , walk around mill . roll up , clamp , walk back . make couple cuts , do it again . if you plan on always having help you might be alright . I went with hyd. so I could saw alone . hyd. toe brds are handy to . power feed, power up down ,auto clutch , there is enough miles a day just tailing . used has been mentioned but I worry about used .  I have a 2004 with 2800 hrs . must be pushing 100 thousand brd feet mark . paid 28 thousand . believe I just sold it for 16 thousand . long story short I'm a believer in hyd. if you can swing it         rl
rl

Rob in NC

Quote from: rl on April 15, 2016, 06:47:58 AM
   I have a lt40hdg28  the hyd. make life easier . can't imagine turning logs by hand , walk around mill . roll up , clamp , walk back . make couple cuts , do it again . if you plan on always having help you might be alright . I went with hyd. so I could saw alone . hyd. toe brds are handy to . power feed, power up down ,auto clutch , there is enough miles a day just tailing . used has been mentioned but I worry about used .  I have a 2004 with 2800 hrs . must be pushing 100 thousand brd feet mark . paid 28 thousand . believe I just sold it for 16 thousand . long story short I'm a believer in hyd. if you can swing it         rl

this would be one more factor I have considered - I will be milling by myself 90% of the time..
2012 Lt 35 manual

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

rjwoelk

I have the lt15, built a log cabin cut up lots of pine for other projects,  but I have a tractor to handle the lifting and turning, would be nice to have the hydraulics to save the tractor though.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

Rob in NC

Well I placed my order for my LT28 Saturday  8) - 8 weeks out puts me close to July 1 for pickup

I got the upgraded 25hp engine, log deck package and power feed option.

I decided with the sale price they have going and my current sawing needs this is going to fit the bill. After looking at the 35 HYD I feel like that is where I may eventually end up going but I don't for see the need in the next couple years and the price point was more realistic for me in the 28 then the 35 at this point. Im planning to start with the 28 - recoup some expense when I can and if this mill gets as much use as I think it will then when the time is right I will move this one down the road and upgrade to the 35HYD. Im pretty excited ive been looking at woodmizers for 2 years now and im still planning to go the show in Richmond in a couple weeks although I wish they were going to have a 28 there as I have yet to see this exact mill run.

I appreciate all your advice and responses to my questions - this forum has been an asset on getting some real world feedback and im sure I will be reading more
2012 Lt 35 manual

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

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