Nyle L200 Refrigerant question

jcbrotz · June 12, 2016, 04:53:55 AM

I went to check my kiln progress last night and it was not dripping popped the covers off and the cooler was warm and not dripping, I assume its the refrigerant. The manual states 416a. I will have my uncle have a looksee at it today or tomorrow but was wondering if that is what they are using now as I come up with very little on Google about it. I should add it is of the 1993 vintage and the compressor is running.

xlogger · June 12, 2016, 05:51:58 AM

I'd give Stan a call at Nyle, I'm sure he would help.

jcbrotz · June 12, 2016, 06:07:04 AM

Will do but they are closed. lol my stuff only breaks after hours. Also note to self do some more troubleshooting before posting, it now appears that the compressor stops running even with the contactor pulled in. Got some wiring to trace out and find why. But my inquiring mind still wants to know about the refrigerant. Thanks again guys.

xlogger · June 12, 2016, 06:36:58 AM

I'm sure YH "Robert" will see this and he can help.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · June 12, 2016, 01:27:00 PM

One great feature about NYLE is that they use standard compressors, so local a/c people can provide service without any issues.

Cazzhrdwd · June 12, 2016, 04:33:31 PM

Sounds like you have a small leak somewhere. Whenever my compressor was running and the coils were warm, that's what it was. Had a tech fix the leak and refill it, cost 240.00 Which I thought was reasonable until it happened again a few moths later. I had a large jug of it and would periodically put some in. What happens is the coils get thinned down, paper thin and the system starts to leak. Only option is to replace the lines, evaporator and condenser.

I bought a new unit, L200 unit only was three thousand, which I also thought was reasonable.

Pretty sure you have to fill it with what's in it.

jcbrotz · June 12, 2016, 06:54:26 PM

Well I am fairly certain it is an intermittent electrical issue works great for awhile then nothing. The wiring diagram leaves a little to be desired but I got most traced out. Just need to figure out the compressor wiring it has 5 wires going in and nothing much on the diagram that came with my brand new 2nd hand unit that is of 1993 vintage. I will contact nyle tomorrow and report back.

YellowHammer · June 12, 2016, 10:49:30 PM

The compressors can use 134a as a substitute, which is used for demanding automotive service and is similar to kiln service. Very easy to get, and can be bought at any auto parts store. These refrigerating systems are simple and straightforward, and pretty easy to fix. Although I've not had any trouble with my L200, I've had to replace the major components in my L53, including the compressor and evaporator.

When diagnosing or refilling the the system, there should be frost on the low pressure line from the compressor all the way to the evaporator bulkhead, but not to the coils themselves, or they will freeze up. If the system is cycling, it may very well be the low pressure safety switch is shutting the compressor off to protect it.

These system cannot reliably be filled with a pressure gage manifold as the only indicator (I've tried); the charge must be weighed in. However, the system can be easily diagnosed with a voltmeter and pressure gauge set.

Here's a link to a previous thread of me replacing the compressor in my L53

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,85317.msg1305403.html#msg1305403

jcbrotz · June 13, 2016, 05:00:57 AM

I will get some pictures later, I am at the point I think the compressor is failing but have to make up a wiring diagram for it today and get a hold of Nyle to see if they still have one. I was in there again last night and the compressor is coming on and off at its leisure but the contactor for it are staying on so it must be internal. But I don't quite understand the wiring for the compressor yet it has 5 wires 2 are for I am assuming some sort of heater? but that happens to be loose in the base of the compressor, but it has 3 wires a red black and blue going to the compressor the blue comes off what I believe to be a large capacitor, it is almost like its a half butted 3 phase due to sometimes I swear the meter read 367 volts to ground. but I did not have my good fluke just my dinky ammeter one. I will have to play with it today and report back wish me luck.

jcbrotz · June 15, 2016, 04:19:06 AM

Well I have quite a few answers and a few questions still. So it turn out that if I turn my controller down to 90-95% it will keep on chugging along. Mind you my Nyle unit is if the 1993 vintage just removed from the shipping crate and put into service last year. After talking to Stan at Nyle he cleared up some of the wiring stuff with the correct diagram and a bit of explanation on the 300+ volts I am seeing, turns out the capacitor is supposed to do that. :D which explains why it works when it does and not when it don't. So we now have an intermittent problem that is either the compressor, the capacitor, or the wiring. My bet is on the compressor opening up internally due to heat and age even if it is a brand new 20+ year old unit, and it is the most expensive. :D

jimdad07 · August 18, 2016, 09:54:02 AM

Quote from: jcbrotz on June 15, 2016, 04:19:06 AM
Well I have quite a few answers and a few questions still. So it turn out that if I turn my controller down to 90-95% it will keep on chugging along. Mind you my Nyle unit is if the 1993 vintage just removed from the shipping crate and put into service last year. After talking to Stan at Nyle he cleared up some of the wiring stuff with the correct diagram and a bit of explanation on the 300+ volts I am seeing, turns out the capacitor is supposed to do that. :D which explains why it works when it does and not when it don't. So we now have an intermittent problem that is either the compressor, the capacitor, or the wiring. My bet is on the compressor opening up internally due to heat and age even if it is a brand new 20+ year old unit, and it is the most expensive. :D

There should be two caps on the system of its a single phase unit. There will be a start capacitor which will have a high uf rating and a run capacitor which will be power. When power is applied to the refrigeration circuit one wire will go to a potential relay which will in turn put power to your start winding on the compressor through the start capacitor. Once the potential relay sees that the compressor is running it drops the start winding out of the circuit and the run cap takes over. If you have any issues with any of those start components, they will cause intermittent compressor failures and eventually burn the compressor up. There is Also an overload interrupting the common winding on the motor that opens if the compressor gets too hot.
As for the use of 134a in an older unit it can done but you need to change the compressor oil to POE oil because it mixes with refrigerant so there is proper oil return to the compressor. 134a and mineral oil do not mix. If you swapped to 134a then you will need to cut your compressor out, dump the oil in it, braze it back in while flowing nitrogen to prevent carbon from forming inside the piping and plugging up your metering device, replace your liquid line filter drier, evacuate the system down to 500 microns, add POE oil into the suction service port on the compressor, recharge, apply power and pray to the refrigeration gods that there is no old oil laying in the lines anywhere to cause you grief.
I do this work for a living, working on rack refrigeration to steam boilers and anything HVACR in between. If there's anything I can do to help let me know.

bkaimwood · August 18, 2016, 09:03:52 PM

Quote from: jimdad07 on August 18, 2016, 09:54:02 AM
Quote from: jcbrotz on June 15, 2016, 04:19:06 AM
Well I have quite a few answers and a few questions still. So it turn out that if I turn my controller down to 90-95% it will keep on chugging along. Mind you my Nyle unit is if the 1993 vintage just removed from the shipping crate and put into service last year. After talking to Stan at Nyle he cleared up some of the wiring stuff with the correct diagram and a bit of explanation on the 300+ volts I am seeing, turns out the capacitor is supposed to do that. :D which explains why it works when it does and not when it don't. So we now have an intermittent problem that is either the compressor, the capacitor, or the wiring. My bet is on the compressor opening up internally due to heat and age even if it is a brand new 20+ year old unit, and it is the most expensive. :D

There should be two caps on the system of its a single phase unit. There will be a start capacitor which will have a high uf rating and a run capacitor which will be power. When power is applied to the refrigeration circuit one wire will go to a potential relay which will in turn put power to your start winding on the compressor through the start capacitor. Once the potential relay sees that the compressor is running it drops the start winding out of the circuit and the run cap takes over. If you have any issues with any of those start components, they will cause intermittent compressor failures and eventually burn the compressor up. There is Also an overload interrupting the common winding on the motor that opens if the compressor gets too hot.
As for the use of 134a in an older unit it can done but you need to change the compressor oil to POE oil because it mixes with refrigerant so there is proper oil return to the compressor. 134a and mineral oil do not mix. If you swapped to 134a then you will need to cut your compressor out, dump the oil in it, braze it back in while flowing nitrogen to prevent carbon from forming inside the piping and plugging up your metering device, replace your liquid line filter drier, evacuate the system down to 500 microns, add POE oil into the suction service port on the compressor, recharge, apply power and pray to the refrigeration gods that there is no old oil laying in the lines anywhere to cause you grief.
I do this work for a living, working on rack refrigeration to steam boilers and anything HVACR in between. If there's anything I can do to help let me know.

Great information and advice. I hate retrofitting anything old to R134a, but sometimes there's little options. It's much tougher on most system components, as it's more caustic/acidic, if you will. It also runs slightly higher pressures.

jimdad07 · August 19, 2016, 01:24:54 PM

Quote from: bkaimwood on August 18, 2016, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on August 18, 2016, 09:54:02 AM
Quote from: jcbrotz on June 15, 2016, 04:19:06 AM
Well I have quite a few answers and a few questions still. So it turn out that if I turn my controller down to 90-95% it will keep on chugging along. Mind you my Nyle unit is if the 1993 vintage just removed from the shipping crate and put into service last year. After talking to Stan at Nyle he cleared up some of the wiring stuff with the correct diagram and a bit of explanation on the 300+ volts I am seeing, turns out the capacitor is supposed to do that. :D which explains why it works when it does and not when it don't. So we now have an intermittent problem that is either the compressor, the capacitor, or the wiring. My bet is on the compressor opening up internally due to heat and age even if it is a brand new 20+ year old unit, and it is the most expensive. :D

There should be two caps on the system of its a single phase unit. There will be a start capacitor which will have a high uf rating and a run capacitor which will be power. When power is applied to the refrigeration circuit one wire will go to a potential relay which will in turn put power to your start winding on the compressor through the start capacitor. Once the potential relay sees that the compressor is running it drops the start winding out of the circuit and the run cap takes over. If you have any issues with any of those start components, they will cause intermittent compressor failures and eventually burn the compressor up. There is Also an overload interrupting the common winding on the motor that opens if the compressor gets too hot.
As for the use of 134a in an older unit it can done but you need to change the compressor oil to POE oil because it mixes with refrigerant so there is proper oil return to the compressor. 134a and mineral oil do not mix. If you swapped to 134a then you will need to cut your compressor out, dump the oil in it, braze it back in while flowing nitrogen to prevent carbon from forming inside the piping and plugging up your metering device, replace your liquid line filter drier, evacuate the system down to 500 microns, add POE oil into the suction service port on the compressor, recharge, apply power and pray to the refrigeration gods that there is no old oil laying in the lines anywhere to cause you grief.
I do this work for a living, working on rack refrigeration to steam boilers and anything HVACR in between. If there's anything I can do to help let me know.
Great information and advice. I hate retrofitting anything old to R134a, but sometimes there's little options. It's much tougher on most system components, as it's more caustic/acidic, if you will. It also runs slightly higher pressures.

It's the POE oil that causes a lot of issues. 409a is a good option as it can be put into an R12 system as long as all of the R12 is out of it but it does run a higher head pressure.

jcbrotz · August 20, 2016, 05:01:57 AM

Quote from: jimdad07 on August 18, 2016, 09:54:02 AM
There should be two caps on the system of its a single phase unit. There will be a start capacitor which will have a high uf rating and a run capacitor which will be power. When power is applied to the refrigeration circuit one wire will go to a potential relay which will in turn put power to your start winding on the compressor through the start capacitor. Once the potential relay sees that the compressor is running it drops the start winding out of the circuit and the run cap takes over. If you have any issues with any of those start components, they will cause intermittent compressor failures and eventually burn the compressor up. There is Also an overload interrupting the common winding on the motor that opens if the compressor gets too hot.
As for the use of 134a in an older unit it can done but you need to change the compressor oil to POE oil because it mixes with refrigerant so there is proper oil return to the compressor. 134a and mineral oil do not mix. If you swapped to 134a then you will need to cut your compressor out, dump the oil in it, braze it back in while flowing nitrogen to prevent carbon from forming inside the piping and plugging up your metering device, replace your liquid line filter drier, evacuate the system down to 500 microns, add POE oil into the suction service port on the compressor, recharge, apply power and pray to the refrigeration gods that there is no old oil laying in the lines anywhere to cause you grief.
I do this work for a living, working on rack refrigeration to steam boilers and anything HVACR in between. If there's anything I can do to help let me know.

Excellent info It has been running flawlessly as long as I leave it set at 90% of the time or below. I assume there is a over temp in the motor opening after more testing but just not on the print. I will have to remember to get a spare motor/compressor around for it but haven't done it yet drying 3500ft or so of walnut right now. I am sure I will be reporting back hopefully later rather than sooner. thanks again.

YellowHammer · August 20, 2016, 08:07:12 AM

I had to replace the compressor in my L53, it was surprisingly inexpensive, especially compared to some of the other components that I had to replace. The evaporator was steep, about twice that of the compressor. I haven't had any problems with my L200 refrigeration system yet, so don't know replacement costs.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · August 20, 2016, 01:43:07 PM

I have the understanding that an idle compressor is not a good Idea as the seals deteriorate. I also have the idea that local refrigeration people can repair or replace a L200 compressor when needed. If this is true, then having an extra compressor would seem to be unneeded.

jcbrotz · August 21, 2016, 04:56:34 AM

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on August 20, 2016, 01:43:07 PM
I have the understanding that an idle compressor is not a good Idea as the seals deteriorate. I also have the idea that local refrigeration people can repair or replace a L200 compressor when needed. If this is true, then having an extra compressor would seem to be unneeded.

My uncle owns an appliance repair business and he did not sound like it was a big deal at all to do the work so I am not to worried about that part. But I don't like the idea of it going for the next few months as I have a lot of cherry and walnut to dry. The L200 has worked great thus far still have some tweaking on my kiln layout to do but that was all self-inflicted nothing to do with a brand new 20 year old kiln still in the crate that I was wondering if the parts were still good. I did price the compressor unit from Nyle and was pleasantly surprised or the pricing but she is still rolling the water out the drain tube. So far so good haven't ruined any wood yet lol this batch may be the first who knows. thanks again for the help I know I will be needing more.

Ox · August 21, 2016, 10:11:26 AM

Use propane for refrigerant. Cheap, easy, and most times more efficient/effective than the other refrigerants. I have it running in my old 1994 Caddy and outperforms R134a. Best part is, propane isn't reactive to any of the oils. Europe uses propane/butane mix in their vehicles a/c and have for years apparently. Propane only needs half the weight of R134a due to the molecular differences and being more efficient.

"But it's flammable!" Yep. So is R134a, which is also toxic when it burns. Not so with propane. Research it - you might be surprised. I know I was!