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Cat 51 hp. Headless cat

Started by MartyParsons, September 06, 2015, 11:06:06 PM

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petefrom bearswamp

Thanks Marty You are SO HELPFUL.
I assume that my gasket at .010 thick is the old one.
The only problem I see is that on the opposite side from the front end of the engine there is a bracket that IMO wont let the exposed end with the rivet have enough space.
Also you indicated that you get the gaskets from Perkins.
How do I do this?
If you weren't 4 hrs away I would be on your doorstep with my mill.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

slider

Pete i used my diesel shop ,local to order parts from cat.Just be sure you have the serial number and arrangement number before you order.
If your pan has the drain bungs on the side i would surly take the time to have one placed in the bottom of the pan where it should be. I found one on line for 8 bucks.
I am thinking you have the late model gasket if it is metal.
al glenn

petefrom bearswamp

You know a thought on this and maybe other threads too.
Maybe we can get together a class action suit against Caterpillar, Perkins etal.
Perhaps WM would chime in too as there are MANY WM owners with these engines that have failed thru not any fault
of the user.
I'm sure WM bought these many engines on a recommendation of the manufacturer/supplier.
OMG head gaskets failing? Crank bearings failing? oil pans leaking?  in the world of automotive this would have cause a massive recall.
Thoughts on this??
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

MartyParsons

Hello,
   Yes, You know this is a long story. Extended warranty was provided by the engine supplier not the engine manufacture. It was not worth the paper it was written on. Not sure of the details exactly. It does not make anyone feel good, as a manufacture, sales team, service. When you say yes this has a warranty then the company does not back it up.
We just deal with it the best we can and inform what may happen. Hope for the best. There are many that have survived with many hours and many that have not. These engines are used in many skid loaders also have issues with cranks and # 2 connecting rod, popping through the block for unknown reason. Not seen this as much on the mills.

Bottom line, make sure it has a crank support kit and the newer head gasket. Change engine oil as recommended. Check drive belt tension with the tension tool. Do not ever over tighten the drive belt. 

::)

Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

jaciausa

I also have the Perkins Cat engine. I have added the bearing support but just now seen the post about the head gasket. It only has 1450 hours on it. I had Unit appraised for value before I bought it- no mention of this huge problem in appraisal. The motor has never had a wrench on it that I can visually see. It would have been a big negotiating item had I been told this. Engine runs very well and does not use or leak any oil. I have not been able to operate it myself, except to learn how to operate it and try to get together all of the support equipment and supply of logs.
How many hours are possible for these engines with proper maintenance, if upgraded in time?

MartyParsons

Hello,
  I know of a few with lots of hours. One customer has a 2005 51 hp Cat with over 11000 hours on the meter. He did replace the head gasket. I am pretty sure he did not install the crank support kit. Again that is one that I know of, and there are many more with some pretty big hours.
I dont want you to panic but be sure you are aware there are ways to keep things from happening.

Marty

Yes we ( WM)  asked the Perkins/ Cat company and the engine distributor about Serial numbers. But they said it was not their issue. So they would not admit there is or ever was an issue. We ( WM) was on our own. WM did replace many engines with new ones when they were under warranty and there was no reimbursement back to WM so it was all on customer service. Warranty has been long gone on these mills and engines. I think there was a 5 year warranty issued with these engines.
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

ladylake

 With cranks breaking in skid loaders with no side load I'd think just a bad bunch of cranks.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

jaciausa

Perkins Head Gasket Problem Leads to Failure
There must be a beginning serial number for these 51hp Perkins or a date that the new head gaskets were placed on these engines. There probably is a memo or e-mail or a whack of them from manufacturer, supplier, manufacturer, end manufacturer that tells the problem. I think it would have been reported to any end user as an alert. The new head gasket did not appear on the cat-Perkins motors just because! What is the date that perkins-cat was aware of this?
What I think is important, would be something sent out to all known owners explaining this problem. Had I not been a member here, I still would not know that the engine has issues that should be addressed before failure.

jaciausa

Marty, Were some of the engines produced with the new gasket or not?

MartyParsons

Hello,
   Yes there are some engines that were assembled new with the gasket shown below. 




 

There will be a rivet on the back corner opposite side also.   


Here is the old style gasket.



 

Not much to hold together. Just a fire ring, which in the picture had blown between cylinders and some material.

Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

FloridaMike

Those cylinders look to be pretty close together!  Reminds me of the 400 small block Chevy.
Mike

jaciausa

Marty, Thanks for the information, There are no pieces of the gasket overhanging block on my mill except for one small place.
I guess I need to add this to my list of bad news on this mill. I can not find any carbon on the oil filler cap! or telltale sign of damage. So I guess that is the good news, unless I am still being over optimistic that I do not have a permanent problem. What is the next steps in determining whether motor is damaged. Also what year or date did this first become known to WM?

jaciausa

I guess I should take the valve cover off to see if I can spot any carbon deposits. I believe any future owners of a used 51hp cat sawmill should be given a heads up of this possible problem with the gasket.

This really affects the value of this mill or any with the problem engines. I am not convinced that all of the old gasketed cats will have this problem. Some of the FF owners are not having any problems. Possibly a bad batch of the old head gaskets could have doomed only some of these engines? I guess I have to replace the head gasket to protect my investment, even if it shows no signs of carbon. Even then I would need to document that it has no problem before it is changed.

petefrom bearswamp

Talked to Barry at WM Northeast in Hannibal today.
Told me the problems he has seen are with the early perkapillars 2004 to 2006.
Mine is a 2008 so I guess I am ok.
I will still inspect for carbon deposits often tho.
On another note I am going to try to replace my pan gasket with the good old permatex red form a gasket by rotating the engine on the pivot points to see if i can get the pan off without removing the engine.
Barry said the oil pump may interfere but I am going to try.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

MartyParsons

Hello,
   Never liked using permatex on the oil pan gaskets. If you get a stringer of gasket material inside and it lands inside the pan it could be an issue. The stringer will go through the oil screen and then get stuck in the crank. I have seen this on an engine and the rod was blue from lack of oil. I know they sometimes use no gasket on the pan just the permatex right from the factory. So just something to think about.

Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

petefrom bearswamp

More great advice from Marty!
Thanks
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

woodworker9

I have been using Loctite red high heat gasket maker (forget the number, but I can check in the shop if you need it) on rebuilds for a while now, and love the stuff.  No worries about anything breaking loose and clogging up the works.

Stuff works great, and is excellent under high pressure, too.  My Kearney and Trecker mill was leaking everywhere like a sieve, and I used this stuff when I rebuilt it.  No leaks anywhere now.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

jaciausa

Talked to Indy to try to find a period of time that the problems ended.
I do not know what to do for sure. I guess I will have someone remove valve
cover and inspect for signs of future problems. I know my mill was produced
and left factory on 7-24-06. It has a serial number on the engine of
G7 M 00685 and an arraignment code of 216-6386. I do not know how to read
either of these at this time. It is the engine that came with mill. This is one
thing i did not want to track down after purchasing.
Serial Number and arrangement should tell the story.


Davek603

I have been a mechanic all my life and own a garage. If you have to use a form a gasket I strongly recommend you use "the right stuff" I have not found another that was even close in quality. We buy it in the small caulking gun tubes. I have several friends, one who is a heavy duty road mechanic who have tried it and swear by it now as well.
Obviously a real gasket is my first choice but many applications now don't use them.
Good luck!
Woodmizer LT50 and lots of iron to go with it

petefrom bearswamp

Thanks everybody
My friend who is knowledgeable and who  we call dickopedia says the red stuff is great.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

jaciausa

Are the pan gaskets unavailable?

Deese

I just now ordered the crank support kit for mine. Woodmizer is currently out of stock, so it will be a short (hopefully) while before it arrives.

I got new air filter(s) delivered yesterday and went to change it....
Something was a little off  ???
No big deal, they are sending the correct one right away.

I was just told that my year 2004 didn't use the 2-filter system, just the one, shorter one.
So anyways...it's on the way.


 
2004 LT40 Super 51hp w/6' bed extension
Cooks AE4P Edger
Cat Claw sharpener/Dual Tooth Setter
Kubota svl75-2 skidsteer w/grapple, forks, brushcutter
1977 Log Hog Knuckleboom loader/truck

Magicman

Probably the same air filter that my John Deere uses.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

paul case

Quote from: Magicman on May 18, 2017, 07:22:28 PM
Probably the same air filter that my John Deere uses.

Or my Case 580 or my IH 966 or 1086, Nissan 60, or clark 6000 pound forklifts all have a filter similiar to the shorter one with the air fins on it.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

MartyParsons

Hello,
Repeat . Head Gasket Monday.

Just a reminder. There was nothing that showed that this engine had an issue. Owner purchased the mill and said what do you think.

Well it looks like it has the first design head gasket and no crank support.

So here is what we found.








 
This engine had a new water pump and a temp gauge installed in the thermostat housing. Owner did not have any history about the engine.


The antifreeze was also brown and looked not so good.



 

This is a 2004 LT40 Super with the 51 hp Cat Perkins 1400 hours. 

Hope this helps.

Marty

"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

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