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Detroit 353 wont crank

Started by Plankton, January 05, 2016, 05:48:14 PM

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Plankton

So my detrout has shown obvious sign of a failing starter solonoid since I bought the skidder. Occasionally spinning instead of cranking and sometimes a clunk for a few key turns then it would work. It finally gave up the ghost last afternoon so this morning I ran down to the parts store and got a new solonoid replaced it engine cranked fine!

Put everything back together and tried to actually start it to go pull some wood but it cranked good for two tries (it was really cold here today) third try it didn't do anything no clunk no spinning nothing. Tested the batterys they had 12.6 volts but I hooked my truck up anyways, no difference tested at 14 something volts.

I double checked all the wires nothing broken or shorting, connections are tight on the starter. The battery side on the solonoid has 12 volts key on, the small terminal going to the ignition switch has nothing key on and 10 when in cranking position. The other side of the solonoid going to the starter has nothing key on and 10 something when in cranking position. If I jumper the two large terminals with a screwdriver the starter will spin but not crank.

What am I missing here?

Corley5

Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Autocar

Theres a possibly that the starter gear may be stuck in the fly wheel spun out and hung up.
Bill

lopet

Did you hook your booster cables to the battery or to the starter pole ?  The reason I am asking is, I once had a bad wire and it wouldn't let enough current through or enough amps. Sometimes the ends corrode or get brittle.
Could be also a gummed up starter motor or a bad armature.

Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

tantoy

1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

Plankton

I had my jumpers on the battery, tommrow morning I'll try jumping the starter direct, didn't think of that

It seems unlikely to me that the starter motor got so corroded or gunked up that it went from working to not working from one crank to the next, stranger things have happened I guess.

I hope that isn't the problem Because that means at least a few days of downtime if I bring it to our local starter guru.

OntarioAl

Plankton
When you connect the two big lugs you are energizing the starter and it runs (that's good) but you bypassed the solenoid which draws in a iron  bar connected to the bendix  drive.
Try this test again but jump from the power lug coming from the battery and the smaller bolt on the solenoid. This will energize the solenoid complete the circuit between the power lugs and activate the bendix drive. If nothing happens you have a bum solenoid (we already know the starter runs)
I hope this helps
Al
Al Raman

BargeMonkey

 Hung starter would be the first stop. Did you try slapping it with a rubber hammer ? Sometimes they will come loose. Sometimes you can hook to them direct and bump them enough they either crank or disengage. It would be worth pulling and testing on the ground, you will know how bad it is, but its probably time for a rebuild. I've heard guys on here talk about the gear reduction starters, might be worth looking into.

starmac

What ontario al said, the starter can't be hung if it spun when you jumped across the two main terminals. Try just arcing across the ones he described, then hit the ign switch, for some reason this works. I have one on a 60 series that might do this 1 or 2 times a year, and has since 99 when I bought the truck.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

jwilly3879

Masco Marine gear reduction starter. Around $300, put one on last year. 1/2 the weight of the delco and it spins twice as fast. Had to open up the mounting holes to accept the bolts. Called and had it in 2 days.

The other thing to check is your ground connection from the battery, mine had corroded inside the crimp connection.

Ohio_Bill

I am using a gear reduction starter on my skidder it's a Perkins and not a Detroit, but I had let the starter go to long with out attending to its needs so I think the case was about the only thing not needing replaced. The price was actually less for a new gear reduction than replacing all the old parts in the original starter .I have been using it for 2 years and very pleased with its performance. Starts much quicker.
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

ga jones

Wow bill, I've had 2 completely rebuilt for 150.00 each in the last 2 years for a couple different machines. I was looking into the gear reduction but it was like 300.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

Corley5

It's 200.00 to rebuild the AC/Delco starter on my Deutz.  That's everything new in my old case including a solenoid and labor.  I've messed with starters that weren't doing what they should and on a rare occasion I got them to work again but in every one of those rare cases it was a short term fix.  Now if cleaning and tightening connections doesn't make a difference they come off and go to the repair shop.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ohio_Bill

Quote from: ga jones on January 06, 2016, 10:31:12 AM
Wow bill, I've had 2 completely rebuilt for 150.00 each in the last 2 years for a couple different machines. I was looking into the gear reduction but it was like 300.

I went back and checked the invoice. Sometimes my memory needs a little help LOL.  Bought it for $ 180.00   . Starter    28MT 12v 10t CW (410-12173)   if I remember correctly they wanted $ 209.00 to repair the old one.   Been very happy with this one.
The new starter came from the rebuild shop.
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

Plankton

I hooked up the small and the large terminal with jumper cables tried the key nothing, then I jumper ed across it with a screwdriver and I can hear a click each time I make a connection, isn't that the solonoid closing?

Fun thing is I bought the only solonoid in the area just my luck haha perfect logging weather right now too.

Plankton

Well I have a magic solonoid, kind of like turning a computer on and off and it fix it...

I took the solonoid off to go return it and order another one when I noticed it had bolts on top to take it apart so I pulled my old one apart and it looked like the bottom of a boat in there nasty corrosion everywhere worn down plates etc.

Pulled the new one apart and there was no broken sautering or missing parts it looked perfect I figured there is no way this could be bad it passes voltage through it and it looks perfect inside.

So it put it back on and the engine cranks! Not going to get to excited here because it did this before.....

Do any of you guys know the mechanics of the spring and plunger that go into the solonoid? Im wondering if that's messed up or got hung up some how.

Ohio_Bill

Let me start off by saying I know enough about starters to know I don't know much. Took me awhile to learn that though.  diesel starters live a hard life and even harder when its cold .  So any more if its not loose wires they come off and go to the shop . I have kicked my self a few times when starters died in a bad place and I had been babying them. 


 

So here is what I would guess is going on. Of course its coming from a guy who already said he doesn't know what he is talking about LOL . I would guess the bronze bushing in the nose housing has worn and is causing the other parts to bind up . When things like that happen it can damage the motor, so sometimes it needs a lot of help.
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

Corley5

  Most times Jim or his son Mike at Golden Auto Electric in Gaylord will fix a starter or alternator while I wait.  Sometimes I help by cleaning parts etc.  Sometimes they tell me to get lunch or go to Jay's http://www.jayssportinggoods.com/  and come back in an hour  8) 8)  They get me running again.  I can't spend too much time on one myself before I'm in the hole even farther.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

OntarioAl


In this cross sectional view of a starter solenoid there is a disc(copper) that makes contact with the terminals completing the circuit and energizes the starter motor.
You did this by shorting across the two big terminals and you said the motor ran freely which means it is not bound.
When you shorted between the battery terminal and the small terminal you heard a clicking sound as the solenoid energized and moved the plunger but not enough so that the disc could come in contact with the terminals.
After taking it off and checking it out then re installing the new one again it now works.
Great !!
If it acts up again it might be that the plunger is hanging up.
Al
Al Raman

treeslayer2003

what happens alot to the delco is the brush holders freeze in place from corrosion. if one is stuck, it will turn but not have enough power to crank the engine.
its a poor design, any time i need to replace one i get a gear reduction starter. idk if you can buy the brush assmy or if only the rebuilders have them.
i won't pay 300 for a rebuild i can get a new one for that.

Plankton

Great! Thanks for the diagrams guys, saved them to my hardrive. I lIke to know what's going on exactly with different parts to understand and troubleshoot more thoroughly.

I'll look into buying a gear reduction starter if this one keeps having issues, started good all of today, once it just spun the motor instead of cranking so I think the whole thing is on its way out.

I did the gear reduction thing in my pickup a 95 f350 replaced the old starter with a super duty gear reduction starter. Amazing the difference in weight, size and cranking power

North River Energy

One of the two conducting 'spots'  on the contactor disc will arc, pit, and wear away more than the other. Sometimes you can get more life out of an otherwise good solenoid by rotating the disc to bring 'new' metal into the conversation.

starmac

My bet is that if it wouldn't do anything before you pulled it and it works like it should, is it was not grounding right. And removing and reinstalling it cleaned up the ground enough.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Plankton

Just posting this in here in case anyone at some point is searching on here with the same problem.

Starmac hit it on the head with that last post, same thing happened today when I went to start the skidder, turned the key nothing. Batteries were fine so I looked through this thread and read Starmacs post. Pulled the ground strap from solonoid to starter and cleaned it and all the washers etc. Cranked a little then stopped again. Cleaned it some more and it cranked like normal.


brianJ

From Ontario AL
.  diesel starters live a hard life and even harder when its cold .  So any more if its not loose wires they come off and go to the shop . I have kicked my self a few times when starters died in a bad place and I had been babying them.

This is exactly what I do have done.   Leaned it from that expensive institution of higher learning known as The School of Hard Knocks.

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