The USDA Forest Products Lab in Madison Wis.

[Tom]

I am becoming more and more frustrated in trying to keep up with the Wood Handbook created by this organization.  I try to direct everyone toward it but find that the links are being broken regularly.  

I thought that this was a Government organization and provided reports for general consumption.  It appears that they are hiding the stuff and I wonder if a profit motive may be at hand.

Do any of you bonafide foresters know how to deal with this, whether it is a public knowledge base and do they know if they are being difficult......or care?

www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/ fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm

www.fpl.fs.fed.us/rwu/rwu4706/handbook.html

[beenthere]

Tom
Have these sites been changing the material, or have they become less accessible in general?  Any other specific information you care to pass on?  It's our tax money that pays for the information, IMO. Maybe time to organize a campaign of sorts, in a subtle way as to not embarrass the Forestry Forum.  Maybe some pressure through our Senators and Representatives would be the best way to get some grease on the skids, as they probably would then go through the Secretary of Agriculture, who will go to the Chief of the Forest Service, and the 'DanG' stinky stuff would run downhill to that Forest Products Laboratory in Madison.

[Jeff]

I think its because the .us extention shuts completely down on holidays and weekends.  I have tried to email individuals whose email ends in .us on weekends, and I get them shot back not found. try again after monday morning at 8 and they go through.

When I sent out that last email from the forum about the Christmas contest, on a saturday, I got 19 of them back from .us, several looked like school email addresses from our teacher members

[Tom]

If I new that the problem was complacency, I would be the first to raise cane.  Unfortunately, I've found that there are other things that can cause the problem of broken or hidden links.  Sometimes it has to do with the re-organization of the site.  Sometimes it is their server.  I wouldn't even mark off it being my problem.   I am hoping that the foresters would be intimate enough with the Lab in Wisconsin (at least from a professional standpoint) to know what the status of the Hand Book is and it's intended relationship to the general public.

There are other sites That I could send members to but hate to take our thunder and give it to someone else who is a competitor.  Wood Web is the last site I would recommend.  There is bad blood there. They tried to steal software from us several years ago (calculators that Jeff and Ron W. created).  Jeff caught them at it and they weren't nice at all.  I guess I still hold a grudge even though I visit over on occasion.

[Tom]

Jeff,
That PDF is static.  It is dated 1999 and, although rumors of a new one abound, a new copy hasn't been created.

I wonder if its size or some copyright rule would prohibit us from having a copy on the Forum.

[Jeff]

Storage size would not be a problem, but bandwidth might be if it was downloaded a whole bunch. How big is it?  As to copyright, we would have to inquire.

[Tom]

This Google link indicates 7k (that seems small)

Wood Handbook, FPL-GTR-113
Forest Products Laboratory. 1999. Wood handbook--Wood as an engineering material.
Gen. Tech. Rep. FPL-GTR-113. Madison, WI: US Department ...
www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/ fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm - 7k

[Jeff]

7k is the size of the google cache file.

[beenthere]

When a request comes in for the WoodHandbook, maybe the Govt workers have to load the tape onto the tape drive, and get it spinning, to download it. And this time of year, and on weekends, they are having their siesta (end o year use or lose time), so don't get it loaded.  ;D ;D ;D

I think the Govt. documents are in the public domain, and can even be re-packaged and sold (like Stephen_Wiley suggested, to cover cost of binding, etc). I think Public Documents sells the Wood Handbook too. Not aware of any other private vendors for the 1999 edition.  

[Stephen_Wiley]

To my knowledge as with other government produced documents it is NOT copyrightable.

Any time information is shared with or from a government office it is considered pliable for public use and 'ownership' of such information is public. For e.g., a 'forester' working for a government office writes a paper on: "Millable properties of White Pine" he will be recognized for his contribution, but the information produced is NOT saleable nor can be copyrighted.

The exception to 'selling' is simply to recover binding and printing costs.

My hardback edition (June 1987) shows absolutely no copyright statements, rather posts the following para. as a disclaimer:

"The use of trade, firm or corporation names in this publication is for the information and convenience of the reader. Such use does not constitute an official endorsement or approval of any product or services by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to the exclusion of others which may be suitable."

[beenthere]

The Forest Products Society (FPS) does print the WoodHandbook and has it for sale,   http://www.forestprod.org/shop/

But I also think it can be downloaded for use on this forum without a problem (if the forest service site can be accessed), if there is no copyright to infringe upon, as is likely the case.

[Don P]

The FPL website is going through a major overhaul, it's bigtime frustrating to get some of the old links working. I e-mailed one of the department heads a week or so ago after almost every link on one page either failed or redirected me to the wrong pdf file. He took the time to send back a nice reply, apologizing for the inconvenience and offered to find any files I couldn't get. One tip in the interim is to look at the address, if any capital letters appear, change them to lower case and try again...this worked about half the time, hopefully it will get better. They did take down one of my favorite tech reference pages after I had posted links to it all over the web  :(.

None of the information is copyrighted...we paid for it. I didn't know that the first time I purchased a copy of the Wood Handbook in '74...$75 It was a Prentice Hall printing offered through a woodworking catalog. Loose leaf binding, I was supposed to get updates as they came out, none have ever arrived. Still probably some of the best money I ever spent, pages are falling out of that old copy. I've got my F-I-L's '55 copy, don't pass by an old copy if you see one. There's some info in the old copies that is not in the newer ones, and some of it is just easier reading.

[Ron Scott]

Any requested information should be readily available from the FPL. They're there to serve the public and will do so, but there may be some change over terchnical  problems going on as Don P stated.

Give the FPL Director a telephone call or an email if you are having problems getting any info. They do like to know that there are "interested publics" interested  in what they do and the services they provide.

[SwampDonkey]

Tom,

This link seems to work

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm

Maybe it would be best to direct folks to the main page and give them the name of the document to click on. In this case I found the link on the bottom of the main page. One can also use their search engine to locate it off their site.


cheers

[SwampDonkey]

It looks to be out of print, but used copies can be purchased at amazon.com

Also, another book of interest may be found here.

Forest Products and Wood Science: An Introduction

I bet there are quite a few folks that would be interested in this book also.

 Harvesting Urban Timber

[Frank_Pender]

I tried to acquire an copy a few years ago and also discovered it was out of print.   If I recall correctly, I believe they said there could be some discoverd in a warehouse and would most likely cost me more than a $100 to get one sent to me.  To say the least I declined the offer. :-/