Red pine thinning and management

[Clark]

I recently had several pine thinning sales that just got done this last week. I thought I'd take some pictures to share with you guys how it is done around here...

These sales were all private timber so the management had been lacking a bit. Typical stands looked like this:



Although, this one had been thinned 10 years ago by taking every 3rd row. So most of the stands were thicker and older. After the cutting, the above stand had a different look to it:



All of these sales were cut by the company that @barbender works for. They do an excellent job and everything was cut with CTL equipment. Stacking some wood on the landing:



The typical plantation in this sale was ~50 years old and planted long before this style of equipment was standard. Spacing tends to be ~7' but with hand planting or workers that just don't care that much. The actual distances varies considerably but they tend to shorten the distance instead of lengthening it. Taking out one row will sometimes get the space needed by this equipment but sometimes you need two. The standard when planting now is to keep 8' between rows so they take one row and have 16' to work in. So some of these plantations are a bit tight for the equipment:



As you can see, there is very little damage done to the residual trees. About one tree along each cut row got whacked good. That is not bad considering what they are doing. Occasionally they manage to ding one up really well:



We'll get it the next time we thin here. The above plantation is growing very well. When marking it I presumed it was close to 40 years old based on height. Counting rings on the stump I came up with 33 and with a height of 57' this is site index of 80 for red pine! Which can grow this:



13" on the stump in 33 years is excellent for these parts. Dodging glaciers and growing 4 months a year these trees are lucky to be standing! For background, here is how I have seen red pine plantation establishment shake out over the last 50 years. Much of this data is taken from my father who was a forester for 35 years with the State and my own experience inventorying public lands. When my dad started working they were managing natural red pine stands that showed an extreme amount of variation in growth. Site index can range from 40 to 70 in natural red pine stands. An average would probably be 50-55. Growth from this period often looks like this:



But can show some promise in certain situations:



1/4" between growth rings is not common in these parts! In the second half of his career the pine planted after WWII started to become merchantable and it was thinned. With the better control of spacing, competition and reliable seed sources this next generation of red pine was proving to have a site index of 60-65 which was a good improvement. The pine that he planted has done even better. Better soils maps, site prep and improved seedlings have resulted in pine stands that grow 70'-75' in 50 years. In many ways this is an amazing improvement. The difference between site index 60 and 70 in red pine is significant. To add an average of 15' to the site index will substantially increase yields.

Here is typical natural red pine growth as seen on the stump:



100 years old, 19-20". The view up help explains why:



The tree was growing in the wedge-shaped gap between the two trees. That is also why I marked it. The neighboring trees will slowly respond but the landowner is less concerned with growing fiber than he is having a nice looking forest. He will have some very nice looking areas:



A view of pre- vs. post-thinning in natural red pine:



The questions remains why does the red pine here grow better than other places? The lowest site index I measured was 70 with many of the plantations just over 80. I honestly can't say why except that they just do. Typically red pine won't seed in unless the seed falls onto bare mineral soil. In these parts, they seem to grow everywhere:



I have never seen red pine grow up through hazel, invade old fields or form near monocultures without a fire. Except in these parts, the east end of the Iron Range. Northeast Minnesota should be the absolute pine/bread(?) basket of the state. All three native species of pine (red, white and jack) grow very well here and the natural history of the area favors pine over aspen and birch. What aspen does grow here often shows sign of rot:



Here is a mixed, natural stand of spruce, balsam, aspen and all 3 pine species:



Little did I know the processor would be down for the day I came back for a follow-up picture:



You can see that the stand has been thinned on the right and not the left. Here's a better view of the before and after:



If I can convince him to burn this stand in 2-3 years he will be in business. It is unlikely that will happen.

I have often wondered what happens when two pine trees are growing together at the base and you mark one? Some foresters told me it's a waste of time (how much time did that cost us?) and just take both. Well, I disagree. I once marked a sale for the Forest Service and in a back corner there was an acre where every single tree was actually two planted in the same hole...80 years ago! I marked exactly one half of those trees and I think I did the right thing. Here's the traditional solution:



Here's proof you can cut one and the other does just fine:



Granted, the above example was cut by hand (actually from the stand first pictured in this post). Can a processor do that well?



Maybe that was too easy? Too much gap between the trees so it was a gimme? I think the processor operator knew what he was doing:



I would say absolutely yes. He did nip the tree just a bit on the left side. I think the wound is one chain thick and about 2" long. It will easily recover from that.

All this talk of management and what was done, where does this lead us? The first stand I pictured was thinned about 10 years ago and it shows through in the stump:



Really, this isn't anything to write home about. With that said, this was thinned a bit late (5-10 years past the normal recommendation) and thinned somewhat poorly. Taking every third row has it's advantages but I don't think it is a long-term solution that deserves much attention. What can we do to ensure we are growing pine closer to it's potential?

As mentioned earlier, plantations have been planted a bit tight. The recommendation for planting is now 800 trees/acre. That works fine for site index 65 but creates more problems on the more productive sites. Reducing that to 600/acre would be a good start. Making sure there is 8' between the rows is essential. Finally, thin on time. In the roughly 1,000 cords on this sale, there were 4 acres of pine plantation that were thinned at the correct time (27-33 years old). All of those were planted too tight so they still aren't coming out great but we'll try to work with it. It will be a forest the landowner enjoys but we have work to do otherwise they will grow thick once again.

Ultimately, this is all the landowner's decision. I think he's happy in part because he got some money and the view from his cabin of the natural pine stand is largely unchanged:

[barbender]

Looks good, Clark, and excellent documentation! I was close to coming to that sale and getting to meet you, but got moved back (I wasn't too bummed being it was out of town for me😊). One of these days! 

[mike_belben]

Great thread, thanks for taking the time to put that all up.  

How do you calculate site index?

[Tarm]

Clark/barbender
What are the sorts/markets for red pine in NE MN?

[Resonator]

 
Here is a 75 year old Red Pine, about 24" at the stump. Planted by my father and uncle on my land, long before I was born. Grown a few hundred miles south of Duluth in central Wisconsin. My logger said the trees were at max time, if not just past, for harvest. This was one of the trees I saved for my own milling, the rest of the stand was cut a few years ago, and sold to a mill for framing lumber. I was told there is also a market for telephone poles, if the quantity and quality are there. He also recommended I replant it as well, which I plan to do.

[barbender]

Tarm, our Red Pine market is mainly stud bolts (2x4's), sawtimber for anything over 20" (the stud bolts typically pay better, but have a 20" max diameter, it's kind of backwards that the big old growth is worth less..), telephone poles, which pay quite well, and pulp- which is almost always a hassle to get rid of.

Resonator, I'm glad to see you saved yourself a few👍

[thecfarm]

Nice post.
I have some red pine that grew up in the old pasture. My Father had no idea where they came from. There is only a few acres of red pine,just in one area.

[Clark]

I'm working on a couple clients closer to you barbender. We'll meet one of these days.

Mike - I use site index curves/tables/equations for red pine in this part of the world. The curves are a bit different for the NE, they can even be a little different in Wisconsin. I typed the equation out in excel and so now I just type in the age and height and it gives me site index.

Resonator - I always find it odd what qualifications people use to justify when to cut their pine, especially red and white pine. 75 years for a red pine is still young, you probably could have grown them to twice that age without any problems. If you're going by the books or money then yes, it is past prime. However, the logger probably didn't know what reasons you had for growing the pine which makes his reasoning less than accurate. You're the landowner, you have the final say and I think forestry has used scare tactics too often to convince people they should cut everything. Granted, there is a time to cut everything but I don't believe that situation happens as often as loggers and foresters make it seem.

As barbender mentions, pulp is a hassle. I had one client with 3 acres of young pine that we didn't thin because it was going to all be pulp. Hopefully in five years I'll be back and we'll get it then.

Clark

[Skeans1]

What's your guys typically cycle life? How many thinnings do you guys normally do to a clear cut? What's the typically pole lengths out there as well as requirements on them?

[Clark]

Skeans - Typically an industrial owner will cut it all at ~50 years. Two thinnings is pretty standard; one at ~30 and another at ~38 or so. Sometimes they thin a third time and push out the final cut 5 years but that would only be on productive sites. barbender will know pole specs better than me, I just sell the timber and the pole buyer marks out the poles that I have marked.

Clark

[Skeans1]

Interesting a little different then the PNW depending on land owner 40/45 year rotation with one thinning at 25 years old. What's your guys typically spacing you shoot for or trees an acre?

[barbender]

I think the longest pole I have seen is 67', I can't remember if the shortest they mark is 27', or 32'. I don't know specifically what the specs are for the poles, as the pole buyer marks all the poles. As Clark said, two thinnings is typical, although we also do a fair amount of 3rd entry. One challenge on 3rd entry sales is the canopy has been opened up enough that the underbrush can get out of hand, and it can be hard to see the marked timber.

[WDH]

Excellent documentation, Clark.  Needles grow wood.  Keeping the crowns healthy is the key.

[Pclem]

Tarm, our Red Pine market is mainly stud bolts (2x4's), sawtimber for anything over 20" (the stud bolts typically pay better, but have a 20" max diameter, it's kind of backwards that the big old growth is worth less..), telephone poles, which pay quite well, and pulp- which is almost always a hassle to get rid of.

Resonator, I'm glad to see you saved yourself a few👍

I always thought that's a shame, with the big 100 year old white pines, they pay the same as bolts. Actually harder to find markets.

[Resonator]

Clark - My logger was already cutting other hardwoods on the property adjacent to mine, and it made sense to have the Red Pine harvested while he was there. At the time, (3 years ago), prices were good, so yes we were: "going by the books or money." He hand cut with just a forwarder and one truck, and did minimal damage to the rest of the woods, so I was happy with his work. The stand he cut had been planted very close together, and never thinned. Most trees were 16" at the stump. Also some of the stand was no longer sheltered, and now in the open, and there was concern of a high wind storm snapping them off. The few I saved were planted separately with room to grow, the one in the picture was one of the biggest. He did try to get the best price and market what he cut, but they didn't quite make the grade for telephone poles.

[Pclem]

If I can convince him to burn this stand in 2-3 years he will be in business. It is unlikely that will happen. [ quote ]


Clark, how old is this particular stand, and would you clearcut and burn.... for regen of the red pine again?

[Clark]

Pclem - That's a good question! I realized after posting that I had left some details out but we can fill them in as people ask about them.

That particular stand is probably 80-100 years old. I didn't actually count any rings but I'd be inclined to say closer to 80. The history of the area is one of being cut over, burning and then short-lasting agricultural attempts. About 10 years ago spruce budworm moved into the stand and killed off the balsam fir which left small to moderate sized openings throughout the stand. The spruce, jack pine and aspen are nearing the end of their expected lifespan which means that there is a ready source of fuel on the ground (balsam) and it is being replenished every year with spruce, jack pine and some aspen.

Naturally this stand would have burned under these conditions. It may have been 5 years ago or 20 in the future but the chances are better than not that fire would push this stand away from spruce and fir and towards pine. The plan, if I can get the landowner to agree, would be to conduct a growing season burn that consumes all the balsam and spruce seed and kills those trees. Burn it nice and slow into the wind so the downed fuel can be consumed. This will set the stage perfectly for pine to seed in. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of white pine but they would do well in the shady areas while all three pine species would be found in the sunnier areas.

So the answer is no, this would not be a final harvest with burning to promote pine. The landowner is more interested in having mature trees and habitat for deer. The pine will seed in thick and provide great cover for many species of wildlife. Now, just to get him to do it...

Clark

[WDH]

Work the wildlife angle.  As you know, the fire will promote the growth of very benefical food plants for the deer.

[enigmaT120]

Why did they plant two trees per hole?  Were they expecting 50% mortality? 

[Pclem]

For us, using a planter on the back of the tractor, you grab seedlings from a bin, and place in the furrow. Sometimes if the seedlings are small, or if you are in a hurry, you grab two by accident. I assume that is what happened here.

[enigmaT120]

Oh wow.  I"m sure our tree nurseries do it that way, but not the tree planters around here.  No way a tractor would avoid tumbling down our hills.  It's all on foot with a shovel or hoedad.  I use a shovel.

[Skeans1]

I'm just north of you and we do it with a tractor or a cat with a mechanical transplanter, heck we've even used a RES transplanter which is a Christmas tree planter.

[SwampDonkey]

It's all hand planting here in New Brunswick and we have flat land. The only mechanical planters used are on Christmas tree farms. And those are most all old relics from the days when government was helping establish plantation with help of forest extension staff. Those days are 25 years gone. In the early days of planting pine on woodlots, it was bare root. The plantations could be 1 acre or maybe 50 on old pasture. Some was later planted on cutover, but was containerized stock CANAM 45. Plantations are 1000 per acre, but now DNR wants them tighter 1100 per acre to 1200. White pine a lot tighter. I have seen a few remnant stands of natural red pine, depending on site, the old growth are well over 20". I think the oldest red pine in the province recently measured was over 300 years old. Now that is a rare one for sure, since most old stands are long harvested by now. I have 25 year old red pine well over 10", not forest grown, but not out in a field either and not 50 feet yet, more like 35.

[Skeans1]

Maybe this will help someone out, it's also time able with different sprockets as well as the number of baskets on there. We also have a Forestry planter which is an old hyster from down in the south let's just say it makes my back hurt even thinking of having to ride it at all.
Heavy Duty Tree Planter | RES Equipment

[chevytaHOE5674]

Site prep is mechanical here with a skidder or dozer opening a furrow, but the actual planting it done by crews of Mexicans that travel up this way every summer.

[SwampDonkey]

I think some crews tried Mexican planters and also spacing saw operators, even some was from Ukraine or near there. I don't think it was a successful venture. But these days it is harder to get good planters and saw operators, they tend to be 40's and older around here, the new blood don't last too long. Used to too much 'easy' living because their parents worked too hard in life. :D

[barbender]

We have what Chevy describes as well. I think all of the planting is done by migrants on work visas, I know UPM uses them as well. They are payed pretty well from what I understand, but they bust their butts and plant a LOT of trees in a day. We were doing some site tours with UPM one spring, and the migrants were out planting. We were having a discussion about it, and quite a few of the loggers there had planted trees when they were younger. I can't remember the specific numbers, but the UPM guys told us what the migrants were getting in a day and it was 2 to 3 times what the loggers would get in a day- and they said those were big days that really kicked their butts!
    I remember one time I was taking my BIL (from Texas) and a friend (from Bangladesh) out fishing, as we were driving out to the lake, we came past a crew of migrants that were doing some tree planting. My BIL asked in surprise, "are those Mexicans all the way up here?". Tony, our friend from Bangladesh asked us "what's the big deal with that, I am from Bangladesh?"😊 In his mind, Mexico was a border country, not way across the Pacific like his home.

[SwampDonkey]

A lot of planters go from here to the west coast to plant, $300+ a day planting there if your experienced. I don't think much more than $180 here and that is for a lot of trees in a day. Here it is line planting, so one slow planter holds the rest back. Not that way out west.

[SwampDonkey]

I know one guy had some Mexicans on a crew thinning. They came out each day with jugs empty. Come to find out, it was poured out, not burnt. They don't all pan out. Don't kid yourself. ;D I'm pretty sure how that came about. A lot of thinner talk is how many tanks they cut on a piece of land, versus the rate that got paid. Put it together. ;)

[Clark]

Why did they plant two trees per hole?  Were they expecting 50% mortality?

No, they wanted to get done with the project! As Pclem said, it's usually a mistake. The above example I mentioned, where there was an acre of trees all planted 2 per hole, that was definitely a rascally move on the part of the planters. Granted, someone should have dealt with the problem in the first one or two thinnings but it was clear to me how important contract administration can be.

Many of the DNR offices have a planting machine that is often pulled around by a tractor or dozer. They are used almost exclusively on old fields or special situations where there aren't (m)any stumps. I think they were purchased decades ago when the pioneers in this area realized that the land was not that great for farming and let it go tax delinquent or sold out. On top of that, most of of our pine grows on sandy soils, often with very few rocks (outwash plains) so a planting machine has huge advantages.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

Here, double stems in plugs, goes back to the nursery. I mean they are responsible to cull/cut the double from the plugs. Leave one behind. Planters here just stick'm in.  ;) Planters here won that battle a while ago. It used to be a quality call, but no more. Most all plantations here are cleaned anyway in 10 years by brushing crews. So those multi-stems get cut out. Yep, I've even thinned on some sites that was pretty clean already, but got to walk all the ground to clip any doubles. Been thinning here since the 60's I believe.

[enigmaT120]

I'm just north of you and we do it with a tractor or a cat with a mechanical transplanter, heck we've even used a RES transplanter which is a Christmas tree planter.

Man I didn't know that.  Is that flat land?  Everywhere around here seems to be slopes.  

[Skeans1]

No it's not it's mechanical ground though makes life easier spraying in the long run, a few years ago we put in 30k in a week and a half with this setup.

[tripg1968]

Very interesting thread thanks for this! Im not far from you in nw wi. The thinning job im finishing up on now looks a lot like this.The red pine here pops up everywhere and im seeing 35 to 40 year old trees at 13" to 15" on the stump around the outer parts of the plantation.