logging contract

EENBEAN2715 · April 30, 2014, 09:25:44 AM

I decided this year I was going to sell off some of my timber to help manage my woods as many trees are getting old and no good. I contacted a logging company and they wrote me a contract and no where in there did they write how many or what kind of trees they were taking, also the said the would only move 20 tops and the rest would have to stay in the woods. We have roughly 17 acres of trees in western NY. They marked at least 100 trees many are 3-4 feet around. Does 8,000 seem low? They are mostly maples and cherry and a few very large oaks. Sorry for all the questions but it just doesn't sound right.

Jeff · April 30, 2014, 09:39:42 AM

You need a forester.

beenthere · April 30, 2014, 12:10:51 PM

I agree with Jeff. This is a classic example of a landowner who needs some help to put together a plan for what is there now and what he/she wants to be there in the future.

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, EENBEEN

You are wise to recognize there are some major flaws in that contract.

Quotemany are 3-4 feet around.

And 3-4' around is not a huge tree, just sayin.... ;)

EENBEAN2715 · April 30, 2014, 02:15:40 PM

let me reiterate 3-4 feet across not around, you could cut a dinner table out of some!

EENBEAN2715 · April 30, 2014, 02:17:37 PM

will a forester find a buyer or just give me the value of trees? What are the normal expectations of a contract?

Shotgun · April 30, 2014, 02:35:37 PM

EENBEAN, Have you signed a contract with the logger? Since the logger has apparently invested some time with you in your woods marking take-outs, etc., you may have a small problem on your hands. Many/most consulting foresters will have marketing skills and contacts, and a whole stable of skills to assist you in your endeavors. Foresters are like doctors, lawyers, ministers, and so on. You may have to scope several out to make certain that you find one you can feel comfortable with.

Glad you're here. You have come to the right place. My only concern is, you should have come sooner.

Texas Ranger · April 30, 2014, 02:48:25 PM

Get thy self to a forester, check out his references, do NOT sigh a contract that vague.

Oh, welcome to the board, hope you are not too late.

EENBEAN2715 · April 30, 2014, 02:56:09 PM

no I didn't sign the contract, They gave me a week to sign it and were very pushy. After I told them I wanted the tops dragged out and a bridge of some sort left over a creek they refused. so that was it, I understand that a bridge/crossing may not be possible. But I don't see having tops and branches cluttering up my woods. They told me nobody will move tops, I find that very hard to believe. I think when dealing with a large amount of money I should be as cautious as possible. I am trying to look for a forester in my area but there doesn't seem to be many online, should I ask a local mill?

Texas Ranger · April 30, 2014, 03:15:57 PM

Some mills have good foresters on staff, others have loggers. Here is a list of Consulting Foresters of America in the New York area.

http://www.acf-foresters.org/ACF/Custom/Forester_Landing_Page.aspx?hkey=46cc02a7-1825-46ac-8314-c9466073a6e7

Society of American Foresters should have members in your area, maybe the ASCS or farmservice agency can help you find some.

Shotgun · April 30, 2014, 03:19:46 PM

In locating a forester, you might start here. https://forestryforum.com/datasearch.html

Google might help. Do you have a cooperative extension office, or a Department of Natural Resources, or it's equivalent office nearby?

I wouldn't sign anything with a pushy logger, or a pushy anyone else for that matter. Your property size may be a bit of a limiting factor as many might not want to deal with it, and then your desire to have the tops removed will add to the challenges. Having a forester may cost you a little more to start with, but it is usually best in the long run.

Texas Rangers suggestions are good too.

You've got some homework to do. Good luck.

Texas Ranger · April 30, 2014, 03:23:21 PM

Typically here in Texas, no tops are moved, it is a different contract with a clearing company. Either way, it will cut into the profit. If your maple, cherry, oak are veneer grade (That size is possible) you will get a better return with a managed sale, but, you have to know what you have to sell, more than just diameters.

Texas Ranger · April 30, 2014, 03:25:44 PM

This might be of interest to you.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/spr2013winter.pdf

Jeff · April 30, 2014, 03:38:12 PM

Quote from: EENBEAN2715 on April 30, 2014, 02:56:09 PM
no I didn't sign the contract, They gave me a week to sign it and were very pushy.

Very Big Red Flag! Gave you a week to sell your timber? I'd tell them to hit the road just for that.

Texas Ranger · April 30, 2014, 03:41:54 PM

Just a little free thought with the understanding I know absolutely nothing about your timber. But, $8000 could be the value of 10 veneer cherry trees.

EENBEAN2715 · April 30, 2014, 03:42:29 PM

thanks for all the help, I have no clue how to tell the value of the wood, but I'm guessing I'm being low balled. I know there are many factors to grading the wood. Size wise the are some of the biggest trees around here as it has never been logged. so many are 100+ years old and about 100 ft tall

Texas Ranger · April 30, 2014, 03:44:15 PM

The independent foresters, or honest mill foresters, can tell you a lot, but when it gets down to it, you pay your money and take your chances.

Texas Ranger · April 30, 2014, 03:45:42 PM

Oh, and you are new here, so why not fill out a little more information about where you are? Click on one of our names and see what we have on us.

Ron Wenrich · April 30, 2014, 07:17:28 PM

Contracts that I have used both as a consultant and procurement forester would state where the land is located, which trees are designated to be cut, term of payment, and conditions of sale. Trees were normally marked in blue paint, and it would include the number of marked trees. They would also indicate how many were cull trees that were marked with an "X". I never gave volume estimates, as that can be a sticky mess if the logger doesn't get the amount or if the logger got a nice overrun. Besides, I was never paid for my services until the contract is signed. I'm not giving that information to anyone to be used without paying a fee.

Payment was generally lump sum with a down payment of at least 25%, and depending on sale size, it would often be paid in full before cutting began. Lump sum payments were never conditional on quality. Some defect is hidden, which neither the buyer or seller can see. If there is defect, that is on the buyer. His experience should be able to tell about the quality of wood.

Normal procedure is to cut the tops to no higher than a 4' height. That gets them closer to the ground where they decompose quicker. It also has a bit of aesthetics to it. There's no reason not to leave improvements, if that's what is requested. It will come off of your timber value. But, it could be an improvement that is well worth the money.

You can also put in clauses about damages to residual timber. Some damage will occur. But, excessive damage due to sloppy logging isn't an excuse to cut more timber. Make the value high enough to make it a deterrent.

A consultant can do all this for a fee. They'll mark timber, find buyers, and oversee the operations. Just as getting a logger, you would want to talk to several consultants. Make sure they are on the same page as you. Some mills do jobs just as well as consultants. Some consultants don't do as well as others.

GlennCz · April 30, 2014, 08:15:59 PM

Quote from: EENBEAN2715 on April 30, 2014, 02:56:09 PM
After I told them I wanted the tops dragged out and a bridge of some sort left over a creek they refused. so that was it,

I'm a landowner. This is one area I find landowners and the general pubic unreasonable or ignorant. The fact is, when they cut down your trees is it going to make a mess. You are not going to be able to walk in your non-timbered forest like you used to. To ask the loggers to drag out all the tops is unreasonable, and going to be an ugly job, taking quite a bit of time. It's take a logger just as long to drag the trunk(timber) out as it does the top. And just as much overhead with equipment breaking and expenses. Also it's too much to ask them to cut it up in little pieces to the ground. And limbing a tree can be just as or more dangerous than cutting the tree down.

What I did was put a Free Firewood To Cut add in the paper and had the people sign a "hold harmless" contract. They are all over the internet. Of course, you never have 100% protection but as long as you are not charging, that decreases your liability.(i think?). I had people crawling over my land for a few months, and they dwindled out, and have cut my own and have a few people I know. But after 9 years, i walk through and say, wow! I can hardly see that this place was timbered.

My logger says that firewood is worth something like $600-800/truck. Probably before trucking fees. I don't know. After this job is over, I'm going to let him to it because I want the place cleaned up. Then I will probably advertise again for firewood cutters. But some of my property is a little hard to get to. After that I'll have to stone in some spots and have a machine go over my roads.

thecfarm · April 30, 2014, 08:22:36 PM

I had my lot cut 3 times so far. Each times the tops went for pulp. No money in pulp for the land owner,it just cleans up the woods. In my area we are lucky,we have a good pulp market.

Ron Wenrich · April 30, 2014, 09:23:38 PM

Pulp markets are thin down this way. The only paper company in Glenn's area was Charmin and they switched over to Eucalyptus pulp a good many years ago and dried up the market. I'm not sure if they still make pressed board down in the Sunbury area. Most of it goes for firewood to the metropolitan areas. We took it out as we had the markets.

To drag the tops out would cause more damage than dragging out the logs. One thing to remember that a lot of nutrient value is in the tops and fines of the trees. That should be allowed to decompose back into the soil.

GlennCz · May 01, 2014, 05:39:10 AM

The left over cherry logs take forever to decompose. that's good and bad. good because it is good firewood years later. the tops take at least 5-7 years to go away. the biggest problem is not the tops, but the beech that grows back after the cut. on my property that happened very quickly in some areas, and not at all in others. in some areas 2 years later I couldn't walk because it was so thick with beech saplings.

EENBEAN2715 · May 01, 2014, 04:24:16 PM

we have a ton of beach saplings so I'm sure they will go nuts once it's logged. But it's better then the raspberry and wild roses that like to take over my land. Beech can be nice! My profile is a beech in my woods with my Daughter next to it, it's our "family tree"! It gives you a good idea of how big some of our trees are.

GlennCz · May 01, 2014, 09:00:04 PM

Quote from: EENBEAN2715 on May 01, 2014, 04:24:16 PM
we have a ton of beach saplings so I'm sure they will go nuts once it's logged. But it's better then the raspberry and wild roses that like to take over my land.

Oh, the raspberry takeover will probably be even worse.

GlennCz · May 01, 2014, 09:09:15 PM

Quote from: EENBEAN2715 on April 30, 2014, 09:25:44 AM
They marked at least 100 trees many are 3-4 feet around. Does 8,000 seem low? They are mostly maples and cherry and a few very large oaks. Sorry for all the questions but it just doesn't sound right.

That's an impossible question to answer. During my first timber sale the mill paid about $191 per cherry tree and $125/soft maple. Those numbers could be right or could be off a bit, but I did the best I could in counting all the trees we marked and tallying the amt paid per species. Some trees are worth $60 and some could be worth $400 or maybe more for a good cherry. But you will only get a certain percentage of that. Also, those numbers are from 2005 prices and since then, the price paid for a Prime X cherry og, the nicest quality below veneer. That hurts, because very few logs make veneer, but many of the nice fat ones make Prime X.

It's a hard thing, selling your timber, but eventually you just have to take a chance with someone. There is no way you can possibly be assured you are getting the best deal. Only the guy with the stick at the mill, who grades and prices them, can really tell you what they are worth.