circle saw blade question

Paul_H · June 17, 2006, 05:10:23 PM

I sent both blades from my MD out out for hammering last week and got them back today.The manufacturer says they need to be flat with no tension and I had passed that on to the shop where I sent them.The main blade is 30" and the edger is 21" both have 3 x 8 shanks and 5/16 teeth.

The edger threw a shank so I sent a full set of new shanks down with the blades but I see they just replaced the one shank in the edger and changed nothing in the 30".
The main saw is nice and flat and runs true as can be now but the edger is a little wobbly and when I put a straight edge on it,can see some light underneath and can tell it is slightly dished but nothing real bad and when it's 6" in the cut,seems to do fine.

My question is,could the new shank cause the unbalance/wobbling or should I send the edger back?

These pics are of the bottom side of the edger.In the bottom pic,just to the right of the shank you can see a bit of raised metal.They go all around the outside edge of the bottom side and resemble tiny fish ???

Fletch · June 17, 2006, 06:15:52 PM

Hey Paul H. if the new collet has more weight than the others it could alter the balance of the blade. Looking at your pix those old collets look preety well worn in and that I can pick the new one as being the one at 2 o`clock. Could happen.
As for the blade tension, I like to see them dead flat and stiff, but not rigid.
Flat with the tension just relieved.
Could be that your blade is a bit soft.

Priemsy · June 17, 2006, 06:26:04 PM

I was told that the wobble is in the tension when it's not in the wood. The tension equalising when under load. My lucas mill is like that.

Priemsy

Paul_H · June 17, 2006, 06:33:30 PM

Fletch,

I went back out and changed the shank/collet and it improved somewhat but still has a distinct wobble.I ran the edger over the cut again and took a 1/4 inch off and shut the saw down and there is a little heat around the shanks,even with a light cut.
I ran the straight edge again and can see there is cupping.

Priemsy,

The main saw is true and straight.I don't know much about the blades other than there should be no tension at all. It took me 7 full days to have them shipped out,hammered and returned but it looks like the edger is making another trip to Vancouver :-\

Sawyerfortyish · June 17, 2006, 08:25:54 PM

Paul I gave up on the inserted tooth saws for my edger. I put in a set of carbides and haven't regreted it at all. The old edger blades hang on the wall now. I ran the carbides over a year and probably put 100,000 + bd ft through them with no problems. I like them so much I ordered a second set and sent the first set out to be retipped and sharpened, What kind of edger do you have and what powers it?. In the first picture your blade looks like it was run hot by the blue heat marks on it in the picture. I don't think the shanks has anything to do with the wobble in the blade. I think youv'e got a tension problem from being run hot. But thats just my uneducated 2 cent guess. Why don't you give Menominee saw a shout and see what they got to say.

Paul_H · June 17, 2006, 08:48:16 PM

Sawyerforty,

The edger is off of my Mobile dimension. The saw had the blue on it before I sent it out for hammering last week and I had only made two cuts with the edger today before the I pulled the edger back off and took the pic.

To tell the truth,the edger seemed to be cutting fine but the main saw was warped so I figured it would be wise to send them both out together
I put it back on this afternoon and cut a couple 3x12's and the bottom cut looked okay so I have to do some coagitating on this

Ron Wenrich · June 17, 2006, 10:41:01 PM

My vertical edger runs on the same concept as your MD. The only time I get wobble or vibration is when I throw a shank. I have 22 teeth on my saw instead of your 6. I would also get some wobble if I had a winter shank mixed in with summer shanks. Your's are all summer shanks. I doubt that a shank is the problem.

I had a sawyer tell me he didn't care how much a saw wobble when it was out of the cut, it was what was going on inside the cut that mattered. I agree to a point. I try to get rid of most wobble, but I don't lose any sleep over it if its cutting good.

Another factor may be in your collars (assuming you have collars). These need to be turned every once in awhile to keep things running true.

I always have a couple of backup saws, including my edger. That way, if you have a problem, you can just change out and not lose production time.

DanG · June 17, 2006, 10:43:08 PM

Paul, are ya sure the blade is wobbly, or does it just appear to be so. The different coloring of the new shank could make it look like it is wobbling.

Paul_H · June 17, 2006, 11:25:39 PM

Ron,

the edger cut really nice and didn't seem to bind but I didn't check to see if the blade was heating after the cuts,something I'll check Monday morning.

The edger has a collar at the bottom of the shaft and it seems to still be a good fit to the blade.The leading edge(front) of the blade is 1/32 lower than the rear.I don't know if this is a common adjustment or is unique to this type of saw but it's supposed to prevent heating of the blade.

What is the main difference between summer shanks and winter types?

DanG,

the blade definitely wobbles some but I don't have enough experience to no how bad it is. Have you any on your MD?

Robert,

you shouldn't need to run water on your saw if it's adjusted correctly.

mometal77 · June 17, 2006, 11:37:49 PM

Pushed the wrong thing and deleted my post

... I dont know the main blade isnt warped. At the machinist shop in town. The guy said it was due to heat on the blade. Which was visible instead of the blue on your blades mine was a dark red. Which means different temps on the metal. The guy that had the mill before me only cut old growth fir and cedar and instead of fixing the probem he just bought two smaller edger blades. I would think you would need water? Every mill I have seen in pictures have a jug on them? It would make sense if anything was too run right it would be fine tuned too work right. I realize we are not in space where there is no friction. Would be interesting too hear how many actually use water on there mill.
robert

Paul_H · June 17, 2006, 11:50:53 PM

The jug you've seen on the mill is probably the gas tank.Mine has a tin tank but the newer ones have plastic.
I had replaced main and edger belts and a bearing on the main saw shaft while the blades were in town so I had to re-adjust the edger.

This quote is from the manual on the page dealing with adjusting edger saw lead.

QuoteWhen the saw is properly aligned,the saw should feel cool to the touch after sawing

Ron Wenrich · June 18, 2006, 07:15:26 AM

Summer shanks are like the ones that you have. A winter shank is heavier and sticks out beyond where your shank and tooth meet. The common setup for headsaws in this area is a winter shank and summer teeth. We use the setup all year long. The advantage to winter shanks is that you can sharpen them when they wear. I don't run winter shanks on my edger saws.

There is also a winter bit, called a standall. These have the heavy part on the tooth instead of the shank. The heavy part slows down the sawdust and you don't get as much spillage off the logs. Its probably more of a hardwood problem.

Your 1/32 difference is your lead. That should prevent any warming of your saws. I have lead in my headsaw and my edger saws. I even put lead in a cutoff saw for a guy that was having problems. You put as much lead in a saw as it needs to run straigth and cool. I had one mill that needed 3/8".

I agree that you shouldn't need water for cooling. If your saws are getting hot, there is a reason.

Fletch · June 18, 2006, 07:08:49 PM

Hi again Paul.
A couple of how to`s which might help.
Checking the edger blade for tension: Lay it on a bench, bottom side down. Lift one edge until the blade is at 45 degrees. Place a stright edge horizontaly across the centre of the blade. It should be flat in this position.
To check if your hub/ flange is ok you can fit the blade finger tight, check the blade with a stright edge, tighten the flange and re-check with the stright edge. Any change in the flatness will indicate a problem in the flange or high spots on the countersink holes in the saw blade.
Properly aligned, flat blades should not get hot. Only the tips should come in contact with the log,so you shouldn`t need water to cool them. I only use water in dry logs to settle out the fine dust, or in sappy logs to prevent buildup on the blade, which can cause friction problems, and friction causes heat, heat causes blade tension problems.
The heat in the inserts could be that the gullets are worn and rounded off and the sawdust is bleeding round the sides, that might also explain the fish.

Sawyerfortyish · June 18, 2006, 08:39:22 PM

I know when my saw blade on my mill heats up it runs. Are your boards the same width on both ends? Is there any black marks on any edges of the boards?

Quote from: Paul_H on June 17, 2006, 08:48:16 PM

To tell the truth,the edger seemed to be cutting fine but the main saw was warped so I figured it would be wise to send them both out together

If the saw was cutting right I always left them alone except to sharpen. If it ran good before you sent it out and now you get it back and don't run right something was done to the saw that didn't help it.

dail_h · June 18, 2006, 08:47:04 PM

Ron,
I'm glad you posted that you ran a saw with 3/8ths lead. I posted on here, or the 'OTHER" pLACE ONE TIME THAT i HAD RUN AN OLD MILL WITH THAT MUCH LEAD oooppps ,got flamed awful for it. I know it's a lot ,but ya gotta run what it takes. That wasn't the only issue that old mill had :( :( :( ;D

mometal77 · June 18, 2006, 09:02:20 PM

What a lot too learn. The manual for a md is expensive I dont see why for a parts list or the tear down there is not much too the mill really. But when running I have a lot more too learn.
robert

doublecut · June 18, 2006, 11:45:16 PM

paul_h
When a saw throws a shank it is good to replace the shank yes but to say there should be not tension can be a bit misleading.
Tension alot of times may represent for some as a dish in the saw. When i receive saws fresh from our supplier i have them sent into my saw filer and he looks them over and some have to be rolled to have them tensioned so it stiffens them up some. Now this is not to dish them but to stiffen them up some so they stand up tot he RPM. If a saw has really got hot then it is a good idea to have new shanks put in the saw and have it checked for tension and make sure it is flat. If it is dished then it will not work well when bolted on to the arbor.
Also check the balance of the saw with the new shank in there. We built a balancer to check our saws out. It is some times a good idea to replace all the shanks and then send the saw in and have the saw checked again for tension and dish in the saw. New shanks will tension a saw differently sometimes.
doublecut

sawmill_john · June 19, 2006, 06:32:11 PM

Hey Paul so still havin troubles with the saw blade? Double cut is correct, they blades need to be "stiff & flat" they should not have a dish to them. As for the shank as long as the new shank is installed before the hammering job and then checked to make sure it is tight after the hammering and rolling if nesseccary. I mention this only because I have had this happen in the past, is the bottom of the collar clean? it only takes a small burr or piece of wood between the blade and collar to throw every thing off. The other thing that can make a wabble is a loose bearing, I would not suspect a new regular shank in a group of used shanks would be enough to wabble the blade. I'll check back in on this thread so let me know what's happening.

john