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Author Topic: I was in hopes of white oak  (Read 4508 times)

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Offline Tee

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I was in hopes of white oak
« on: April 03, 2013, 12:10:42 PM »
At least I finally got some different material other than pine to saw but I was in hopes this log was white oak to replace the decking on the equipment trailer in the picture but now I'm not so sure. I did add to my knowledge even if I don't know what kind of lumber I've ended up with. First, newbies don't need to put 28+" on the tail end of the mill. Second the 10 degree blades I have don't do that well in whatever kind of oak this is.
 
 






The darker redish areas in the picture with the yellow broom handle is where I'd swept the sawdust off and still wetter in those spots.

Offline Tee

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 12:19:19 PM »
Working on posting pics...

Offline Autocar

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 12:45:51 PM »
Looks to me to be red oak  ;).
Bill

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2013, 12:50:22 PM »
Looking at the log, and not the lumber I'd say red oak.
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Offline alecs

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2013, 01:32:13 PM »
Red oak?

Offline clww

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 01:33:07 PM »
Red Oak.
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Offline NCDiesel

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 02:22:48 PM »
At least I finally got some different material other than pine to saw but I was in hopes this log was white oak to replace the decking on the equipment trailer in the picture but now I'm not so sure. I did add to my knowledge even if I don't know what kind of lumber I've ended up with. First, newbies don't need to put 28+" on the tail end of the mill. Second the 10 degree blades I have don't do the well in whatever kind of oak this is.
...snip...
The darker redish areas in the picture with the yellow broom handle is where I'd swept the sawdust off and still wetter in those spots.

Thats Red oak unless the picture is really lying - we use that almost exclusively here in north carolina for decking on trailers.   Nice and strong and there is no apprecialble difference in weathering/decay/longevity between white and red.   

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 02:30:41 PM »
Quote
Nice and strong and there is no apprecialble difference in weathering/decay/longevity between white and red.

I'm glad you are having that work for you.  In most times that simply isn't the case.  White oak greatly exceeds Red Oaks durability. We would never use it here in Michigan for Trailer decks unless we were forced to, and the white oak decking we also oil.
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Offline NCDiesel

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2013, 02:42:22 PM »
Quote
Nice and strong and there is no apprecialble difference in weathering/decay/longevity between white and red.

I'm glad you are having that work for you.  In most times that simply isn't the case.  White oak greatly exceeds Red Oaks durability. We would never use it here in Michigan for Trailer decks unless we were forced to, and the white oak decking we also oil.

You got me worried, so I looked it up in my main source:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1995/highl95a.pdf

Not much difference according to the tests, nor in my experience.  Both are great compared to most other woods.   I have a corn trailer made of red oak that finally had a board in the floor fail after 18 years (built it when I moved in 21 years ago and this has been 2-4 years ago)

Maybe some geographic variability at play here ?



Chapter 2:    Realizing I have no expertise in this matter, other than my own personal experience and a few reference materials, I decided to call a buddy at my ex-employer; a company that who leases tractor-trailers and therefore has to repair vans, flatbeds and heavy equipment trailers.   He said (paraphrasing him as best I can):

"Red oak is 90% of white oak in every measureable way.  Strength, elasticity, decay resistance, puncture, etc.  Just don't use it for, or around,  boats and marine environments, keep it sealed/oiled, and it will last longer than the trailer.  We use white when it is easy, cheap and abundant - which is never - otherwise we use red - which is always ".

He also added how red oak is porous, white is not, and red soaks up preservative nicely.  He thought property alone nearly completely mitigates any minor diasdvantage it has with white with above ground/non-contact decay resistance.

So there you have it, straight from a heavy equipment trailer repair technician. 
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Offline CalebL

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2013, 04:11:03 PM »
The old farmers around here will only put white oak on/in the ground or on their trailers.  The ole saying is Red Oak don't lay it down, White Oak put it in the ground. 
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Offline beenthere

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2013, 05:05:22 PM »
The old farmers around here will only put white oak on/in the ground or on their trailers.  The ole saying is Red Oak don't lay it down, White Oak put it in the ground.

That is one of the better rule-of-thumbs I've heard. A good one to follow, as the tests in the cited report were tests off the ground and not laying down. About the most that was tested was weatherability, as I see it. UV breakdown and little in the way of decay possibilities.

NCDiesel
Quote
"Red oak is 90% of white oak in every measureable way.
Quote
So there you have it, straight from a heavy equipment trailer repair technician. 

And I suspect his comments were to support what he was selling, not necessarily that he really knew his white from red oak. Don't mean that as being rude, but take it that he truly believes he is correct for his business.
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2013, 05:12:01 PM »
In the USDA Wood Handbook FPL-GTR-113 (table 3-10), the Textbook of Wood Technology and other texts, they will list white oak heartwood as good decay resistance and in particular I think live oak stands out in the white oak group as the most resistant. However when it comes to red oak it is only slightly resistant. Aside from this the tests conducted indicates white oak holds screws better, is stiffer and can stand pounding for a post better than red oak. As far as bending, hardness, splitting, shock resistance and staying in place they are equal. But when looking at data for live oak, these tests indicate live oak to be superior, except when machining and gluing. Live oak is a white oak species.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

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Offline Delawhere Jack

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2013, 05:14:38 PM »
First, newbies don't need to put 28+" on the tail end of the mill.

Dive in, the waters warm!!!  ;D

You'll learn a lot more much faster milling big logs. Usually not the easiest lessons though... :D

BTW, what problems did you have with the 10deg bands? I use almost exclusively 9deg for oak, and aside from an occassional wave when it hits a huge knot, they work pretty well. Any band will take longer milling oak than pine. You might need to cut the feed rate nearly in half, especially oak that large.

Offline Tee

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2013, 05:19:06 PM »
Jeff, I wish for the ability to judge tree species by looking at what you have available in the photo (when it was in log form). I was stickering it before it was becoming clear to me it wasn't white. As it appears on the saw bed, it still looks white at that point. I'll be holding out for white for my project. I do wish I didn't have to find somewhere to put this till someone want's it. And what makes that so bad, outside sawing it in half it's provably an odd size for red oak

Offline Tee

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2013, 05:32:25 PM »
I think live oak stands out in the white oak group as the most resistant."


SwampDonkey, I have some live oak available. That would be good for trailer decking? I would have to get some other blade type, I know that now.

Offline Delawhere Jack

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2013, 05:35:02 PM »
Jeff, I wish for the ability to judge tree species by looking at what you have available in the photo (when it was in log form). I was stickering it before it was becoming clear to me it wasn't white. As it appears on the saw bed, it still looks white at that point. I'll be holding out for white for my project. I do wish I didn't have to find somewhere to put this till someone want's it. And what makes that so bad, outside sawing it in half it's provably an odd size for red oak

Leaves and acorns are the most accurate way to determine what kind of oak you've got. Going by the bark will put you in the madhouse. Don't ask me how I know that. smiley_whacko

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2013, 05:39:26 PM »
Tee, I think you might find it likes to move a lot when drying. Some others on here would give you a better answer on that.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

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Offline millwright

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2013, 05:40:46 PM »
I have a pile of red oak and one of white oak, and the picture sure looks like the red to me.

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2013, 05:48:24 PM »
Delawhere Jack, OK, I want ask how you know. As you see it in log form is how I got it. I stopped by a construction site where they had a couple stacks of logs and asked what the plans were for them. Ended up I got two loads so far with whatever got picked up first. I think this includes some SYP, long needle pine, poplar, sweet-gum, some I have no idea and yes!!, red oak. I think I'll take a couple pictures of the lot and get some professional help before I mess up more would be good wood.

Offline WoodenHead

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2013, 06:04:55 PM »
Out in these parts white oak is used in most cases for trailer decking (aside from softwood that most trailers are usually sold with when new  ::))  Red oak is worth considerably more than white oak in our market in my experience.

The 10 degree blade will work okay for me with red oak as long as the log is not frozen or half frozen, but will not work with white oak at all (like the waves of the sea...  :D).  The wood is noticeably harder.  I use 9 degree blades for white oak.

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2013, 06:09:02 PM »
The bark was the dead giveaway to me. 70% of all the trees on our property are oaks.
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Offline Banjo picker

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2013, 06:20:21 PM »
Red oak is worth considerably more than white oak in our market in my experience.

Not down here...I wish I could trade every red oak I have for a white of the same size....White oak is king for trailer decking...Banjo
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2013, 06:32:42 PM »
The Drying And Processing Forum has a discussion of red and white oak visual difference about 8 messages down from the top.

I am of the opinion, based on what looks like long rays in the lumber that this is a white oak.  Red oak rays are seldom over 3/4" long and these look well over 1-1/2" in many cases.  I do U.S. wood identification (but not horticultural trees, just commercial US species) for free if you want to send me a very small sample.
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2013, 06:35:14 PM »
Take a piece of this wood about a foot long, and very straight grained, and put it in a glass of water and see if you can blow bubbles through it. :)
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2013, 06:43:49 PM »
Quote
Red oak rays are seldom over 3/4" long and these look well over 1-1/2" in many cases.

Seldom is the keyword there. I've seen rays in red oak that look like wooly caterpillars. We didn't see it often, but saw it regularly.
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2013, 06:45:18 PM »
In the 4th pic you see small checks the black lines, r oak there not that define, I say w oak, put w oak in the sun and the checks will open up, and w oak is best to put out in the weather, at least thats what the guys that build wooden boats say ;D
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2013, 07:19:21 PM »
Pretty sure those are not checks. I wouldn't bet against whiteoak, but looking at everything I still would say red. If I had a better picture of the bark on the log I'd be more sure.
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2013, 08:26:27 PM »
Pretty sure those are not checks. I wouldn't bet against whiteoak, but looking at everything I still would say red. If I had a better picture of the bark on the log I'd be more sure.

Im not sure either , some times pics on the FF are to far away to see the bark of a tree,
so to FF members get closer pics If you want to ID a tree :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2013, 09:24:18 PM »
Sorry folks, that is definitely a big red oak.
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2013, 09:29:48 PM »
My money is on Red Oak.

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2013, 09:46:26 PM »
 I am glad to see that there is a unanimity to the fact that it is Oak.  :P   I would also beleive that it is a Red Oak.
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2013, 09:50:45 PM »
sure looks like red to me.  beautiful either way though.... :)
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2013, 10:20:16 PM »
+8! :D
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2013, 11:12:38 PM »
Hello Tee                                                                                                               That is a red oak' just sawed  red oak and white oak two days ago.   smiley_clapping
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2013, 03:59:27 AM »
I am with the others that says Red Oak.
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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2013, 06:08:16 AM »
All my shingle oaks have big rays  like that. Another red oak. If you soak it up with cuprinol, it will stink for a while, but will hold up better.
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2013, 06:46:30 AM »
Folks here are bad to use ( GULP ) burnt motor oil to seal trailer decks.
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2013, 08:00:13 AM »
Plenty good for a trailer deck,slap some Maine stain on it and don't hold your breath til it goes bad. White #1,red#2 black way down the list. Frank C.
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2013, 09:30:21 AM »
Here are a couple more pics. The stickered picture would be the same area as the first post just after drying for 24 hours.
After reading several peoples feedback saying red is ok, just not first choice,(for trailer decking) I may go ahead and use it. Just soak it down with linseed oil. That way I don't have to store it indefinitely.

 

 
 

 

Mr. Gene, if you happen to read this I'll be glad to take you up on your offer and send you a piece to decide one way or the other. I would like to buy one of your books I think I remember hearing about also.

Offline beenthere

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2013, 10:06:48 AM »
Folks here are bad to use ( GULP ) burnt motor oil to seal trailer decks.

What is "burnt" motor oil?  meaning "used" ? 
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Offline CalebL

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2013, 11:53:49 AM »
I soak the ends of my white oak posts in used oil before I put them in the ground.  It may not help, but it makes me feel better. 

I spray diesel on my trailer boards once a year. 
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Offline WDH

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2013, 04:25:29 PM »
Red oak is red oak  :).
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Offline Tee

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2013, 05:43:39 PM »
It rained here today so here they are soaking wet. They are pretty but not what I was looking for.

 

Offline SAnVA

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2013, 07:04:45 PM »
I would like to have seen a close-up of the bark, but the picture you posted of it sitting on the mill, looked like a white oak, especially toward the butt! In any case, can you still buy creosote, I used to buy it and paint truck beds and fence boards, and the bottom 2 feet of locust fence post. I see a lot of talk on here of people using white oak for posts in the ground, that is unheard of around here, nothing in the ground except locust or maybe a red cedar in a pinch but locust is the preferred wood for post. If you can't find creosote then I would paint them with burnt motor oil!

Offline WDH

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2013, 08:42:06 PM »
White oak does not have tight bark with silver streaks.  Northern red oak does, shumard oak does, and scarlet oak does.  Looks like shumard oak or scarlet oak.  You need an acorn to tell them apart for sure if you do not have the site that they are growing to help you.  Not likely a northern red oak in Moncks's Corner, SC. 
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Offline WDH

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2013, 08:43:15 PM »
Hey Tee,

I spent a part of a summer near you eons ago at the old Westvaco "Duke Camp".  Hot as Hades. 
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Offline Tee

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2013, 08:48:50 PM »
WDH, Do you remember the area it was in? They had a huge tract in the Cordesville area that is literally 100 feet on the side of me. It's on the Cooper River.
I still have a section about 8' long I cut off I could take a picture of but by now, this provably should have been in the ID section.

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2013, 09:41:26 PM »
All is that it was an old WWII Prisoner of War Camp, very very rustic (very very), and the closet town to buy groceries was Moncks Corner.  It was somewhere between Ridgeville and Moncks Corner deep in the sticks.  I remember fishing for channel catfish on the rip rap at the dam on Lake Moultrie.
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2013, 04:55:43 AM »
The latest issue of sawmill and woodlot has a nice article about wood treatments that you can apply yourself. 

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Offline Seaman

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2013, 07:01:06 AM »
Beenthere, Sorry, we call used motor oil "burnt"
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Offline giant splinter

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2013, 08:55:22 AM »
I would surly not waste that beautiful oak on a trailer deck, have you got any cottonwood trees there? most of the trailer deck replacements in the PNW are done with cottonwood .... it seems to be the main replacement decking on lowbed rigs because its light and strong as well as rot resistant.
roll with it

Offline beenthere

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2013, 10:52:31 AM »
Being rot resistant is a new classification for Cottonwood.  ::)
But trailer deck replacements might still be a good use of the Cottonwood. ;)
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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2013, 10:54:07 AM »
I know they use cottonwood a lot for trailer decking where preferable species simply are not available or economically feasible. Rot Resistant?  That's gotta be a new strain of cottonwood.
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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2013, 11:00:33 AM »
We had a farm wagon covered with cottonwood decking. Great non-slip surface, but the wood curled up quite a bit.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline Tee

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2013, 11:24:10 AM »
G. Splinter, no we don't have cottonwood here that I'm aware of. I did list it locally for sale. I would like to wait on white but we'll see.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: I was in hopes of white oak
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2013, 02:55:34 PM »
They use treated spruce decking here on some trailers. I do not know enough about that industry to say anything about oak being imported for it's use on trailer decks. We do not live in an oak forest up here and we do make trailers locally. I do know that any on the farm here was spruce lumber.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

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