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Author Topic: OK guys some more input needed.  (Read 2145 times)

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Offline strunk57

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OK guys some more input needed.
« on: April 04, 2013, 09:43:43 PM »
I posted my 12" cedar on craigslist and within 1 hr a guy calls me asking if I want to buy some cedar, i told him prob not but would be interested in seeing what he had. Well he only lives a few miles from my house so i went straight there, He has 88 acres and ALOT of cedar, i only looked from his house but you could see the Green everywhere, I asked what he wanted and told me to make an offer. I refused not knowing exactly what im getting into, I told him i would bring my 4wheeler back tomorrow and take a closer look. His placed was logged out a couple years ago so there are decent roads all the way around his property. I asked him again to price it and he said well start at 7k. But i know by the way he talked he would take FAR less. I have never thought about doing something like this and not sure about it. I have sold cedar fence post before, and i would say there are thousands on this place. Im just not sure, not sure if i am jumping in over my head? Any advice givin would be great. I know i can count on you guys for everything you have told me so far has been correct.
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Offline WDH

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 09:58:36 PM »
You could offer to buy it by the load.  When you cut a load, he gets paid for the load.  That way, you are not committed to buy the whole tract.  You could stop when you have enough. 
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Offline Bibbyman

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 09:59:16 PM »
Do you have a market or use for the cedar?

It'd be hard to tell without looking at the quality of the stand.   Around here field cedar is usually free to the cutter that will clean up the tops and cut stumps low enough to mow over.  Good red cedar is usually bid. 
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Offline POSTON WIDEHEAD

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 10:03:17 PM »
Everything WDH and Bibby said is true.

I have a rule of thumb I always tell customers.....A sawmill buys logs, not trees.
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Offline Dewey

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 10:09:16 PM »
I buy Cedar by weight  and by the the BF....   I wouldn't buy it by the " stand "

Offline strunk57

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 10:19:21 PM »
bibby, i have gotten lots of responses from my postings for my lumber, and im thinking with a lot more to saw, i can drop my price and sell a lot more, I was thinking if i can buy the tract for say 4500 i would come out pretty good, with the logs, and cutting the post to sell also, i checked around ppl in my area are selling posts for $5-$9, i figure i could price for 4-5 and sell alot, ALOT of farms and farmers in my area, Maybe i can sell the post to pay for thhe tract and be like haveing free logs. But he is willing to work with me, said he would sell a little or a lot and work with me on paying him.
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Offline hackberry jake

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 10:23:47 PM »
If it's anything like around here, He prolly wants them gone as much as you want the logs. Pasture makes money. I would offer him $50 for a 16' trailer load.
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Offline POSTON WIDEHEAD

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 10:26:13 PM »
If it's anything like around here, He prolly wants them gone as much as you want the logs. Pasture makes money. I would offer him $50 for a 16' trailer load.

I wish I could find them that cheap.  :)
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Offline drobertson

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 10:32:22 PM »
The stand will have to be walked over. Best guess is if you log, and clean if part of the deal, he would get half or less than market value.  Around these parts this comes to around 200 a thousand bdft. his share,  You will have to figure how this will work for you.  Small stuff needs to grow or be dozed for pasture. Big stuff, 8" and bigger might be worth the work.   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline strunk57

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 11:10:59 PM »
Jake, i dont think he is interested in pasture, he is an older fellow who got the place from his mother, and alot of it is hill side.

David, from what i can see there is a lot of stuff over 10", plus 1000's of fence post, I may be crazy but i think fence post will sell, though it may take a couple years it may be a good ROI. I am going in the morning to take a closer look, 88 acres, he said there was one patch of pine i could have also.
99 timberking b-20. John deere 450c loader. 79 Chevy c-60 95 GMC 2500, Craftsman tablesaw, Dewalt 735 13" planer, stihl ms-290 Stihl 029, Husqvarna 394xp, dewalt router & table, various sanders/hand tools.

Offline Ianab

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 11:13:27 PM »
I think what you need to do is sit down and work out what you can make from each tree, sawn and sold. So you need to get an idea of the size and quality of the logs. If the land was recently logged this suggests they aren't pasture trees? Maybe they were undersize, or the logger didn't want the cedar and just left it standing? Of course this is only guessing until you take a drive around and see what's there. This also of course assumes you have a market for the boards or posts etc. You aren't making anything until the finished product is sold.

Once you have these numbers, you deduct your costs to fell, skid, haul the logs home, saw and dry (?) them. Covering ALL your costs, and paying yourself a wage.

What's left is what you can afford to pay for that particular tree.  Sometimes it's a negative number, and you shouldn't even start. But hopefully you come out with a value, per log, per ton, per tree, per trailer load or whatever unit of measure you agree to buy them in.  Of course if you can haggle and buy them for a bit less, all good. What the logs are worth to someone else, or what the percentage to the land owner might be doesn't come into it. This is that the logs are worth to YOU.

Now you can go back to the guy, explain that you can't commit to buying 80 acres of logs as you are only a small operation. But you can buy them by the "whatever". If that's $50 a trailer load, so be it. Maybe there is 140 loads there? That would be $7000 worth if you got around to taking them all. Or if you have taken 5 or 10 loads and find it's not working out, well you aren't stuck in any contract that's going to loose you a heap of money.

Ian
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Offline hackberry jake

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2013, 02:02:36 AM »
If it's anything like around here, He prolly wants them gone as much as you want the logs. Pasture makes money. I would offer him $50 for a 16' trailer load.

I wish I could find them that cheap.  :)
The only trade off is that prime #1 eastern red cedar lumber sells for .85 a board foot around here. >:(
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Offline Seaman

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2013, 07:13:09 AM »
I agree with all the above.

Don't over commit
Know your market
Know your market
Don't under sell
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2013, 07:47:21 AM »
There is a reason they sell them for $5-9 each too. You have to make money. I don't mean work for an hour and pay out $50 on materials,wood,gas,wear and tear ect and pay yourself $5 an hour.
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Offline dboyt

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2013, 08:24:35 AM »
Cedar is more work to harvest than any other tree I know of, other than hedge (yes, I'd rather work with honeylocust).  It is key to know exactly what he wants in terms of cleaning up.  If I were doing much of it, I'd invest in a mechanical harvester.  The suggestion of committing to a few acres to see how it goes makes sense, but consider 5 acres first.  A lot depends on the size of the trees.
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Offline js2743

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2013, 08:35:14 AM »
What are you calling fence post? A small cedar is mostly sap wood and will rot off before you can get the wire nailed to it. To make a good post it has to be all red or your wasting your time cutting them.

Offline POSTON WIDEHEAD

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 08:52:27 AM »


David, from what i can see there is a lot of stuff over 10", plus 1000's of fence post, I may be crazy but i think fence post will sell, though it may take a couple years it may be a good ROI. I am going in the morning to take a closer look, 88 acres, he said there was one patch of pine i could have also.

Strunk....I'm pulling for you 100%. I'm in S.C. and you're in Kentucky......this is two different markets.
If this opportunity were down here.....I cannot give away cedar post in S.C.  :D  Farmers have gone to metal post down here and homeowners use treated post for fencing. Most of our Cedar down here, I have to have a good "lumber log" to get a good red post out of it. Smaller Cedars have to much white sap wood in it. You have a whole lot better Cedar than we do.......you lucky dog.  :)
If you have a market for Cedar post in Kentucky, I would contact a customer and see if I could get a pre-order for Cedar post.
I sell 3 or 4 Cedar post a year for birdhouses. But Cedar Lumber, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10 inches wide.....I get $2.00 a BF.



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Offline justallan1

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 09:04:19 AM »
bibby, i have gotten lots of responses from my postings for my lumber, and im thinking with a lot more to saw, i can drop my price and sell a lot more, I was thinking if i can buy the tract for say 4500 i would come out pretty good, with the logs, and cutting the post to sell also, i checked around ppl in my area are selling posts for $5-$9, i figure i could price for 4-5 and sell alot, ALOT of farms and farmers in my area, Maybe i can sell the post to pay for thhe tract and be like haveing free logs. But he is willing to work with me, said he would sell a little or a lot and work with me on paying him.

I mean it in the nicest way, but if you are getting lots of responses from your ads, why would you drop your prices?
I would definately start with a small part of this project and see what you can and want to do. I would make real sure that everything is very clear as to the agreement you make with this gentleman including how much money and when it's to be paid, how many acres and both of you mark them, how much cleanup he wants done, etc.
I would also spend a little time figuring out definate sales.
Good luck on whatever you do.
Allan

Offline Meadows Miller

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 09:17:29 AM »
Gday

If there is no time limit set for how long you have to harvest it and you set it up as pay as you go it could be a great start up job as you have all your resource in one place and close to home Mate

Never let the size of the job stress you out You have to start somewhere and I look at big jobs all the time looked at 2500acre pine block the other week and I am of on a 180mile trip tomorrow to look at a 25000 acre pine plantation

The Markets are out there there is no doubt in my mind about that as I have people ringing me here wanting to get everything they need from one mill but I myself am not that big yet to fill Million bft orders every month for single customers  :) :D its all in how you want to attack it I assume your doing the milling along side your day job Mate  ???

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Offline Meadows Miller

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 09:29:49 AM »

Allan I think price point is a big thing in some areas I have seen mills price themselves out of a market and others cut their own bloody neck by working for to little  I do try and tend to find a happy medium with what the market is willing to pay but I am working accross the board I do everything from pallet which is my high volume market and also bread n butter through to export hardwood cants and even small orders in high value timber

Two things have to be consistant though and those are Quality and Consistancy of Your Product without that you will have trouble keeping your market  ;)
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Offline justallan1

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2013, 01:51:52 PM »
Meadows Miller, I fully agree with you, my point was with knowing what a product is going for and getting plenty of calls for what you are advertising why would you drop your price? Just my way of thinking.
Allan

Offline Solomon

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2013, 02:36:54 PM »
If it's anything like around here, He prolly wants them gone as much as you want the logs. Pasture makes money. I would offer him $50 for a 16' trailer load.
Jake, I saw on line about a year ago that Pond Value  (logs scaled and delivered to the mill pond) on Red Ceder was $745.00 per 1000 bf.
 West coast prices.  I think that equates to 5 ten foot logs roughly 24 inches in diameter.   Any thoughts on that?  As I said, its just something I read on line.
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Offline beenthere

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 02:52:52 PM »
Solomon
I suspect that is Western Red Cedar, and quite different tree from the Eastern Red Cedar.   ;)
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Offline Solomon

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2013, 03:00:21 PM »
Solomon
I suspect that is Western Red Cedar, and quite different tree from the Eastern Red Cedar.   ;)
I think You're right Beenthere.  I have never heard anyone speak of "pond value"  around here.   
What do you think high grade ERC logs are worth delivered to the mill?
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Offline beenthere

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2013, 03:07:26 PM »
Cedarman would be one great source for that value info, I believe.

The market likely varies depending on the locality (as said, fence posts in TN may be quite different from KY). Form and shape of the available trees varies considerably between localities as well as within depending on growing conditions.

Estimating the lumber yield and quality in ERC trees/logs with much accuracy could be a nightmare.  And that estimate when looking at a timber stand to determine value will be important, seems to me.
south central Wisconsin
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Offline hackberry jake

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 04:14:11 PM »
Average log price is about $400 per thousand bf. Or .40 a foot. I think this is what cedarman pays. This is price delivered to the yard. I have bought a few loads at .25 a foot but I had to go get the logs. Most cedar is sold using the cedar scale, but I have contemplated using the doyle or international just to cut back on small logs. I had an ad on cl for 6" minimum logs and got 90 percent 6"-8" logs. Maybe I just need to up my minimum.
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Offline never finished

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 09:30:20 PM »
 I have a friend, Fellow sawyer, that only does erc. He buys his by scale. Delivered or if he harvests, priced acordingly. ERC is hard to bid even for someone with years of experience. Just so happens I planed and T&G some for him today. First paying job with my PH260.

Offline strunk57

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2013, 10:04:33 AM »
Wow guys so many different opinions. I think this is a good oportunity, im not sure how the marke is goin to be, A guy 10 min north sells cedar for $3bdft, and a guy 10 min west selld for $1. And there are always ppl needing fence post around here. And the fence post would be At least 5" at top and minimal sapwood. I done this 5-6 yrs ago just for extra cash and sold every load before i cut it, then ran out of post. The 88 acres is FULL of nice cedar, post and sawlogs, up to guessing 32-34". But i think im over my head working by myself, Im still not sure if it pays enough to jump in. I think i will try out jus buying by the load for now and see how it goes.
99 timberking b-20. John deere 450c loader. 79 Chevy c-60 95 GMC 2500, Craftsman tablesaw, Dewalt 735 13" planer, stihl ms-290 Stihl 029, Husqvarna 394xp, dewalt router & table, various sanders/hand tools.

Offline justallan1

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Re: OK guys some more input needed.
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2013, 12:46:40 PM »
I think that is a smart move on your part, Strunk. You can always expand later if you find that you want or need to, plus buying by the load for now doesn't give you a bad reputation if things don't go as planned. Have fun.
Allan


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