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Woodmizer blade diving

Started by delvis, May 13, 2013, 06:50:35 PM

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delvis

Hello again,

We started our sawing season again this past week and moved on to a new job today.  The first log up was a maple the customer wanted sawn at 1-3/4" thick.  I pulled a blade out of the box (resharp) and it dove horribly into the wood at all feed speeds.  The log had a fair amount of stress in it, but we discovered the outside roller guide was tilted down a little bit as well.  If everything is where it should be, what will cause a new sharp blade to dive like this in maple and ash?  We use a 7 degree blade and after the maple was gone we switched to cherry and spruce and had no more diving issues at all.  It may have just been the stress in the butt log but I keep thinking I am doing something wrong.  Would a 4 degree blade help here or should I try one of the 10 degrees we have?  As always, thank you for any help you can give me.

Mike 
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

drobertson

this is one of those have to see to evaluate, but it sounds like a new blade would be in order, then see what happens, If all was right before the move then there could be some kind of alignment issue that accured during transit.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

pnyberg

If sap buildup on the body of the blade gets bad enough, it can make the blade dive.  Since you mention ash, that would be near the top of my list of likely candidates.

--Peter
No longer milling

mikeb1079

peter makes a good point about sap buildup on the teeth.  ash is notorious for that.  also, just b/c it's back from resharp doesn't mean that it's perfect.  everyone makes mistakes perhaps the band wasn't set just right? 
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

POSTON WIDEHEAD

 I have had a re-sharp blade be "wacky" right out of the box. For some reason, the blade just was not sharpened right or something else went wrong.  Note.....this has happened only 1 time in over 2 years.
Try another blade.

A 10° should saw a Maple just fine. 7's and 4's will also saw it, but I usually use those for dry hardwoods like White Oaks and Pecan.

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

dgdrls

I found the drier the hardwood including and especially hard maple the more dificult it was to saw.
When I had my LT-10, 10 and 9 deg bands were not a good solution for me in hard maple.  I never tried 7 deg,
check the 7 you used against a new band

what mill are you running with how much H.P.?

DGD

delvis

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on May 13, 2013, 08:59:05 PM
I have had a re-sharp blade be "wacky" right out of the box. For some reason, the blade just was not sharpened right or something else went wrong.  Note.....this has happened only 1 time in over 2 years.
Try another blade.

A 10° should saw a Maple just fine. 7's and 4's will also saw it, but I usually use those for dry hardwoods like White Oaks and Pecan.

Do you think the 7 degree blade could be an issue in maple and ash?  I switched from 10 degree blades to 7's after the first box because in knotty pine the cut was very wavy. 
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

delvis

Quote from: dgdrls on May 13, 2013, 09:22:51 PM
I found the drier the hardwood including and especially hard maple the more dificult it was to saw.
When I had my LT-10, 10 and 9 deg bands were not a good solution for me in hard maple.  I never tried 7 deg,
check the 7 you used against a new band

what mill are you running with how much H.P.?

DGD


We have an LT40HD with a 38 HP Kohler.  I run water and soap with a lubemizer set up.  I turned the water up quite a bit before starting.  The first blade out of the box dove really badly.  The next blade was much better but still not perfect, but as said before, it behaved very well when I got to the cherry and spruce.  I know that most likely, i won't have any trouble when I saw the oak either with these blades.  I have the WM service truck on its way to do one of their service plans and I am hoping to pick the technician's brain a but, but I have a couple sawing jobs to attend to that really can't wait. 
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

dgdrls

WM tech should be able to help quite a bit.
couple other thoughts,  band tension?
did you try rolling the log or spinning it 180 and entering the cut from
the other end to see what the band does?

Interested to hear what you find, 

best DGD

Sixacresand

Always a good subject but an aggravating problem.  There are a lot of good post about this on the Forum.  On mine I found that misaligned blade rollers, dull blades, pushing the head too fast, knots in the log and sap build up on the blade can contribute to blade diving. My LT 10 is slow, so I watch the inside blade roller. If it stops rolling, I know the blade has started to dive.  I try to back up a bit and see it will straighten.  When I get out of that cut, I check roller alignment, change blades, and/ror check for sap buildup.
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: delvis on May 13, 2013, 11:46:30 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on May 13, 2013, 08:59:05 PM
I have had a re-sharp blade be "wacky" right out of the box. For some reason, the blade just was not sharpened right or something else went wrong.  Note.....this has happened only 1 time in over 2 years.
Try another blade.

A 10° should saw a Maple just fine. 7's and 4's will also saw it, but I usually use those for dry hardwoods like White Oaks and Pecan.

Do you think the 7 degree blade could be an issue in maple and ash?  I switched from 10 degree blades to 7's after the first box because in knotty pine the cut was very wavy.

I've never sawn Ash. I have sawn a good bit of Maple. However, the Maple I have sawn was all green. I sawed it with a 10 degree.

Now knotty Pine is a different rodeo. I can saw knotty Pine with a 10° but I adjust my speed to keep waves down. Personally I like a 4° on dry knotty Pine.....7's work good too.

I thing in a lot of cases, especially new sawyers, they tend to question the blade right off the bat when the lumber doesn't look uniform. Rate of speed, IMO, is the number one thing to master. When you become as "1" with your mill and know what speed goes with your HP vs. degree of blade vs. what you are sawing......you will start to remember all this information and your blade choice will become natural.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

barbender

You must attain oneness with your sawmill, Grasshopper ;D
Too many irons in the fire

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: barbender on May 14, 2013, 05:12:02 PM
You must attain oneness with your sawmill, Grasshopper ;D

You are exactly right Master.  smiley_thumbsup

And the quicker you learn it.....the nicer the lumber.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Banjo picker

I tried to saw an ash when I first strarted...I could not do it....Thats the only log I ever gave up on...I would like to try again....Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Banjo picker on May 14, 2013, 05:52:10 PM
I tried to saw an ash when I first strarted...I could not do it....Thats the only log I ever gave up on...I would like to try again....Banjo

Well Banjo, if you saved that first Ash, you'll have a ball sawing it the second time around.  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

SAWMILL BUDDY

When sawing hard maple or ash I quarter saw it. Makes a world of difference.

MReinemann

My blades usually start to dive once they get dull.  Ash is tricky to saw.  I usually flip it after each cut once it's a cant to relieve the stress.  It always seems to be under stress no matter how straight the tree was.
-Matt

delvis

Haven't heard from the WM tech yet to have him come check the mill out, but we are going to do some checking ourselves to make sure things are in alignment.  As I predicted the cherry, spruce, and oak we had on the same job and same blades sawed out without any issues whatsoever.  We even had one piece of oak measuring 20" through at the widest point without any problems.  The maple yesterday acted just like ash and that was discouraging.  I have a job coming up with a couple ash logs and I need to make sure the mill is ready to saw them.

If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

delvis

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on May 14, 2013, 04:57:49 PM
Quote from: delvis on May 13, 2013, 11:46:30 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on May 13, 2013, 08:59:05 PM
I have had a re-sharp blade be "wacky" right out of the box. For some reason, the blade just was not sharpened right or something else went wrong.  Note.....this has happened only 1 time in over 2 years.
Try another blade.

A 10° should saw a Maple just fine. 7's and 4's will also saw it, but I usually use those for dry hardwoods like White Oaks and Pecan.

Do you think the 7 degree blade could be an issue in maple and ash?  I switched from 10 degree blades to 7's after the first box because in knotty pine the cut was very wavy.

I've never sawn Ash. I have sawn a good bit of Maple. However, the Maple I have sawn was all green. I sawed it with a 10 degree.

Now knotty Pine is a different rodeo. I can saw knotty Pine with a 10° but I adjust my speed to keep waves down. Personally I like a 4° on dry knotty Pine.....7's work good too.

I thing in a lot of cases, especially new sawyers, they tend to question the blade right off the bat when the lumber doesn't look uniform. Rate of speed, IMO, is the number one thing to master. When you become as "1" with your mill and know what speed goes with your HP vs. degree of blade vs. what you are sawing......you will start to remember all this information and your blade choice will become natural.

I agree with you, but with the maple I slowed the head down to barely a crawl on the next pass when I saw the blade start to dip and it made no difference.  This mill has a 38 HP Kohler and it never seems to lack for power which makes me wonder what good would it be to have a diesel if the head can't be run any faster than that? 
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

POSTON WIDEHEAD

You got the power delves. A 38 is nice. I have the 29 Kolher.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

dgdrls

Are you getting real powerery sawdust off the band when your sawing the Maple? 
If so perhaps your overheating the band?
I remember a post here about sawdust off a band mill should look like coffee grounds.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,65506.msg978190.html#msg978190
The log itself may be the culprit but, throw the lube to it.  I ran water and Pinesol
and it was helpful on Hickory AKA the Devil smiley_devil
You can also wedge your flitches and boards behind the band as you cut to reduce friction.

Also check this post , WM 739's   
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,65057.0.html

Let us know what you find,

DGD

delvis

Yes, when I saw Ash and maple both the sawdust is very powdery and fine.  Maybe I need to add some pinesol to the mix when I get into this stuff. 
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

Happycamper

Oneness with your saw is sure a great statement and so true.
Had a sharp blade on the saw and it wanted to dive as I noticed the 2nd  guide wheel would stop turning after I got into the cut. Looked at the blade and it appeared there was more SET in the bottom (outside) than there was in the top of the blade. Took the blade off and into the shop and with a small adjustable wrench took some set out of the outside teeth. Tried it and it was better but not right so did it again and that took care of the problem. Also there was much less load on the engine and it sliced through the log like a warm knife through butter, along with much less sawdust. I use Cascade and water along with a spray of diesel when I see white on the blade cutting fir logs which seems to be very effective.
                                         Jim
Wether you think you can or you can't you're right

delvis

Update to the diving blade issue.  Had 4 logs to saw today for a customer who makes shaker boxes.  He had two nice large pine he wanted quarter sawn 3/8" thick.  I used this 8 sided technique and it worked very well and the boards came out great:   

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Quartersawing_on_a_WoodMizer.html

The last two logs were averaged sized maple that he wanted flat sawn 1/8" thick.  I was nervous because of the issues I had sawing maple last time.  We spent a couple hours the other day making sure everything was in alignment with the saw to try and eliminate any issues there.  The first few cuts were frustrating because the blade started to dive a little bit and even rise up out of the cut.  I put the lube on full and slowed the cutting speed down and it helped a little but not enought to make me happy with the product.

We took the standard 7 degree blade off and put on the new Turbo 7 the WM rep gave us to try at the logging show.  Bam, problem solved.  It cut true and fast.  I have one more log to saw with it tomorrow and hope the blade is up to that many cuts, but I think I will be ordering some of these to have on hand for sawing rock maple and ash. 
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

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