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Lumber Grading in North GA

Started by WranglerSS, November 14, 2018, 08:35:54 AM

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WranglerSS

I built a storage shed and now the county says the lumber needs to be graded. No one at the county can point me to language that states this and I searched for it prior to the build. Does anyone know of a grader in this area?
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Southside

Can't help you with a grader, but if they can't find the requirement in the rules then I would blow it off.  Not like they can fall back on enforcement of a rule that does not exist.  
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mike_belben

Id have my lawyer send them a letterhead saying "prove it" then wait and see.

If its not in writing theyll probably fade away. 
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redneckman

The law here in NC says that as long as you harvest the wood from your land, it does not need to be graded and you can build your home with it. However, if you buy roughsawn from someone, you cannot use it in home construction. ????

This is one topic I do not understand.  100 years ago, every home, factory, courthouse, outhouse, etc was built with rough sawn ( likely green) lumber. These structures still stand today, and the wood is bringing top dollar for reclaimed material.  If it was ok then, and so valuable now, why does the law make us buy framing lumber for a home from a retail center? This lumber is nearly all imported, and we all know it is not as good as what we can saw.

mike_belben

Laws come from lobbyists.  They kill and create businesses in the process. 
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thecfarm

Quote from: WranglerSS on November 14, 2018, 08:35:54 AM
I built a storage shed and now the county says the lumber needs to be graded.
That can be blamed on some people using a 2x6 with 2 inch knots in it.
As redneckman said,things was built with ungraded lumber many many years ago. BUT they knew what good lumber was and what bad lumber was. Now we have some that build that have no idea and some that have an idea,but don't care.
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Magicman

I lost count of the number of homes that have been built/framed with lumber that I have sawn.  I do know that it is over 15. 

When customers call inquiring about framing lumber I always tell them to check with their building permit agent, loan institution, insurance carrier, and builder be sure that everything is OK with them.  There would be nothing worse than building first and then having to fight a battle because the lumber did not meet someone's requirement.  There are a couple of counties & towns that have building codes that exclude "rough sawn/ungraded" lumber so when those potential customers call I point them toward the permit office.  They never call back.

In the OP's situation, I would get into the prolonging and foot dragging mode while doing my research.  No correspondence or anything until you are on firm footing.  Don't call their bluff until you are ready for them to call yours.
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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The building code that all states use, in one form or another, requires certain quality features for buildings.  As far as the wood framing goes, the code was developed to assure that a building was safe (strong enough) and would not collapse due to normal events like a strong wind or snow load, etc.  The strength data was from the US Forest Service's FOREST PRODUCTS LAB in Madison, WI with assistance from various universities.  I recall Virginia Tech analyzing many pieces of southern pine of various grades.  Overall, the idea is that 95% of the pieces within a grade will be as strong or stronger than the design strength.

Most people, including most sawmillers, do not know what the strength of a piece of softwood framing lumber is.  That is, they cannot judge the effect of knots or holes or wane or compression wood or growth rate or whatever, on the strength.  I did a  lot of softwood lumber training; I know how hard it is to estimate strength unless trained.  So, the idea of the grading system is that a certain grade will include a range of quality pieces, but the 95% minimum strength is known and is used in the design of a building.  There are several grading organizations in the US and Canada that monitor sawmills at least monthly to assure that the mill's grading is indeed accurate.  This is done within the industry rather than by the government; the option 60 years ago was for the industry to develop a uniform system of grading and grade-enforcement, but if they could not, then the government would do it.  The grade also includes specifications about size and straightness and species and drying. Basically, it is totally incorrect to blame the sawmills for the system.  (You would not believe the variations in sizes and quality prior to 1950.)

It has been a common activity for the government to develop safety standards...in cars, highways and highway signs, drugs, gasoline quality, drinking water quality, smoke alarms, electrical wiring in a home, etc.  So, wood is not unique.

If a building code enforcement official cannot see the grade of a piece of lumber, then he/she is unsure of the strength.  Therefore, the inspector cannot certify the building.  The building code is quite clear about this, so do not go to a lawyer.  There is nothing illegal going on with building codes and inspectors.

You can say that you do not care about the code application to your own home, but what happens when you sell your home.  The buyer expects the home to comply with the building codes at the time it was built.

in Wisconsin, there is a program that allows a person to grade the lumber for their own home after attending a class.  This class is not authorized to allow grading lumber that will be sold.  Such lumber is not stamped with the grade.  Building code officials will accept the quality with the certificate from the class.  Unless it has changes recently, this was the only state that had this variation.

There are softwood lumber graders that can be hired.  These people must maintain a current certification, must charge for travel and must charge for their time (including their office, insurance, and profit).  A list of grading associations is given in Table 6.5 of the WOOD HANDBOOK (2010 version).  The associations can assist in getting graders.

One special note:  All grades are applied AT THE TIME OF GRADING.  Therefore, when you get some lumber at a large Box Store that seems warped, etc., the wood likely dried in route to the store (Canada to Georgia, for example), which is when the wood warped.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Regarding homes built prior to 1950 without the uniform grading and uniform building codes:  Many old houses are no longer standing.  On the few that are still standing, they have been remodeled to bring them up to a higher level of quality...floors have been leveled, wiring has been changed, rotten wood has been replaced, sagging floors have been reinforced, siding and window frames have been replaced. roofs have been replaced, and lots more.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Stephen1

I am in the process of sawing EWP for an addition on my Cottage. I am grading to my standards as I go. I did do a lot of reading trying to understand what I need or do not need for grade lumber #2 or better. I am sawing at full 2" x 6-8-10. I'll tell you , I need a crane to lift off the 2x10's green that are 14' long.
 I will take the wood to a planing mill, They will mill down to dimensional lumber and the pieces that didn't pass my grade will go to be milled into half round log siding. I will then have a Lumber Grader come and 'flip the sticks" his words. What doesn't pass his grade will be used in a shed, or anywhere grade doesn't matter. I plan on sawing 30% more than I need. 
I have stacks of lumber everywhere :)
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nativewolf

Gene and others I think the OP is building an auxiliary shed, ie a small barn.  At least that's how I read his post.  Thus, I think it's a fair question as to whether or not he needs graded lumber.  Now if his shed is attached to his house, it's likely got to be up to code and that's for all the good reasons listed many times on this site by you and others.  

But for barns and auxiliary buildings like a garden shed or storage shed I'm ok with non graded lumber if it's saw by a good sawyer.   I guess if it is going to be insured maybe it should be graded lumber?  Don't know.  In my northern VA county we can use non graded lumber for a barn.  
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Don P

 Timber Products Inspections in Conyers, GA is probably going to have your closest grader. If you can wait for an unannounced inspection then one of their check graders can probably stop by on his rounds while making pop inspections at a nearby mill, saving you some windshield time. SPIB also operates in that area. Their websites have contact links for having lumber graded.

IF the building meets the definition and size limits of an exempt accessory building in YOUR state code and is within local regs THEN the inspector is probably reaching beyond his authority. Every state has some sort of technical review board, it might be worth giving them a call. However, this is a discussion that should happen before you build. I still have to pull a free permit for an exempt building to make sure I meet the rules and the zoning rules, failing that he can ask me to remove it. Many states also have an ag exemption, if the building is for agricultural use it is exempt, there are caveats on that as well.

Actually a number of states have native lumber laws now, I think pretty much the entire northeast has one in some form or another, NC has had the exception redneckman mentioned for as long as I can remember. I do not know of one in GA.

A #2 2x4 is allowed up to a 2" center line knot, a #2 2x6 is allowed a 2-7/8" cl knot, 1-7/8" edge knot or a 1-1/2" hole. Most people will not use a true #2 but it is on design value, that is really what grading is about. Personally I cull the boards that fall below the 5th percentile and the bottom end of the grade into blocking, cripples,etc and use the stuff that is between a #2 and a #1 for my spanning members. A stick that is on grade should break at 2.1 times design value or better, design value is an allowable stress not an ultimate. Even the stuff in that 5th percentile should break above design value. I did walk over to Lowes and cherry picked a few losers and had them load them in the machine at TP and one did break below allowable. You have eyes too, use them.

I'm working on a gas station built in 1948, no grade stamps, 1-3/4" thick lumber, I'll be sistering onto some of it and am up to 90' of new girders to correct sagging overspanned floors. I like what one carpenter says "They don't build them like they used to, we have laws against that now". I've worked on a lot of old framing, much of it is junk.

Dr Woeste at Virginia Tech was explaining connection design and notching and since I was the carpenter in the class he had me pound a test specimen together in a notched post and asked where it would fail. I knew my nailing was good and pointed to the notch. It broke at a knot, he hoo-dood me but the point was, in the real world, look at everything.

Southside

Quote from: Don P on November 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PMI still have to pull a free permit for an exempt building to make sure I meet the rules and the zoning rules


Don - don't forget the fact the permit serves as the excuse the tax man needs to come and get a fresh look around.  
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redneckman

Quote from: Southside logger on November 14, 2018, 09:06:46 PM
Don - don't forget the fact the permit serves as the excuse the tax man needs to come and get a fresh look around.  
EXACTLY!  I think it is mainly a money thing.
I agree that it is good policy to have some kind of universal standard to judge lumber by.  However, I feel like it is a double standard.  The lumber sold at the retail stores has been "graded" and what I see at my local big box looks like what I toss in the slab pile.  Twisted, warped, split, you name it.  I know I am safe saying that everyone here feels the same as I do; we all want to provide our customers with the best product possible.   I just know that there would be  more opportunities for us all if the codes were written a little different that allowed more use of rough sawn lumber.  I guess I just need to go to school to get a piece of paper that says I know how to grade lumber.  

Don P

I have the piece of paper, that and 2 bucks will get you a cup of coffee :D.
You have to pay a monthly fee to belong to the grading agency that comes out and audits you.
This is kinda getting into beating a horse we've done beat to death, and to be honest, I can sit on a drywall bucket on either side of that argument and chip teeth. It don't change a thing atall.

Magicman

Quote from: nativewolf on November 14, 2018, 07:37:54 PMGene and others I think the OP is building an auxiliary shed, ie a small barn. At least that's how I read his post.
This is not what he said.
 
Quote from: WranglerSS on November 14, 2018, 08:35:54 AMI built a storage shed and now the county says the lumber needs to be graded.
The shed is already built, and now the county says.....  after the fact.
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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

In general, a shed that will have humans inside, especially if there will be people other than the land owner, and therefore at risk, is subject to safety concerns by building inspectors.  Certainly, if the shed is attached to a home, it would be a candidate for sure.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

mike_belben

Builder beware.  Its the govt job to keep us safe from others. Its our job to keep us safe from ourselves.  You mess up, you suffer.  Risk cannot be eliminated from life. But it can really tax the masses letting a few do gooders try. 

We build what we want with what we got here. Catch me if you can. 
Praise The Lord

Dana Stanley

I built 2-12x12 run in shelters (small barns with no door just 6' opening) last year, our inspector said he wouldn't normally ask for a permit, but because we had horses in them, he wanted to inspect to be sure I used sufficient sized rafters. I believe we are allowed up to 200 Sq. feet for an uninhabited building, before a permit is required. 
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gardnesd

Pfff...graded lumber. Gimmee a break;]  More than once I've thrown treated 4x4s from slowe's out of my truck and theyve broken in half. I do it now as a matter of practice....im grading wood!

Lawg Dawg

Quote from: mike_belben on November 14, 2018, 09:40:52 AM
Laws come from lobbyists.  They kill and create businesses in the process.
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Don P

Well, how many small sawmills are out there? Seems like a pretty fair sized lobby. The size of the lobby that got the 4" picket spacing rule into the code... 1 grandmother.

WranglerSS

Thanks for all the replies. I'll contact the folks in Conyers and see if I can get someone to come and grade the 2x6s I built it with. Below is a picture of the barn.

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Don P

Yup, its obviously not ag and it's larger than an exempt accessory structure, and it looks to be beneath minimum code structurally... tiptoe and render unto.

hturner12

If it is residential  most states are using some version  of the  International  Residential  Code. Load bearing must be graded. 

Anything  other  than residential  they  use the International Building  Code. It states anything  over 120 sq ft a permit is required.
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