Upgrading to a Hydraulic Mill - any downside?

[Engineer]

Looking for feedback from those of you who have "upgraded" from a manual mill to a hydraulic mill, in terms of productivity and labor involved.

Lemme give some background - I bought a used 1984 Wood-Mizer LT30 manual mill last year, and had WM go through it and retrofit and upgrade what they could.  I figured that for the cost of the mill, I could saw all my own logs for my new timber frame, and have the mill available when I needed to build a garage or shop.  I have found that the amount of work required to deal with manually loading, turning and shimming logs on the LT30, especially larger logs at the limit of capacity (16' x 24" dia.) takes a LOT more time than doing the actual sawing. It's not really a one-man operation, even with the help of a tractor and a properly loaded log deck. Plus, I will still have to pay someone to cut the longer logs that I need because my mill will only cut 16' logs (yes I know I can cut longer stuff with some extra effort but it's too *DanG much work).

I think I'd like to upgrade to a new WM LT40 Hydraulic.  That way it becomes much more of a one-man operation; all I'll have to do is move levers, saw, and offload.  I can do a lot more by myself.  Plus, I've found that there will be a lot more upcoming work for the mill, a friend wants a new timber frame, and I have been asked by a local framer to cut cants for him, and I can build my shop and garage, etc.

What I'd like to know is (as if I haven't sold myself on the idea already) for those of you who have gone from a manual mill to a hydraulic mill, what effects did you notice in terms of how much you were able to accomplish, both with help and by yourself, and most importantly, was it worth the extra investment?  I'm hesitant to drop another 15-20 grand on a new mill when the one I have is paid for.  I know that if I do this, I'll want to do it now, while I still have a big pile of logs, and not six months from now when I don't think I'll need the capabilities of the hydraulic mill.

[raycon]

Off topic. How much hp does that mill have?
I have woodmizer same vintage. I want to put as big a engine as it can hold on it. I've never see any pictures of the drive system for woodmizers --not sure if I'd have to switch to a dual belt drive etc.
(Note I have the manual just never opened it :-[ cuts into my milling time...)

My experience when milling with a friend that has a new all hydraulic mill is he kicks my butt in all phases except log loading. I can load and level a log in a few minutes -- use a front end loader and the mills toe adjustment -- he loads as fast but the 30+hp motor he has on there flies down the bed compared to my 15hp -- my indirect goal is to get more life(bdft) out of my blades I figure more time in the log ==shorter life for blade.
 
The biggest bang for the buck on my mill would be more HP  then a bed extension -- upgrading to hydraulic for me is fantasy stuff.  Be interested to hear the responses to your question.

[Engineer]

It's got the original 13hp Kohler gas engine.  I don't even have the luxury of toeboards and log turner - even the manual version would help, but I have to do everything with shims and cant hooks.

[raycon]

The toe boards make leveling the heart easier. If you don't have a tractor to load and have to role logs up thats a time consumer. I have the manual winch loader and log turner on the mill used it once to get a feel for it --that was slow but worked with a fairly decent sized hemlock.

I think I read a post where you were questioning the amount of bdft you were getting per band. The HP might be one reason -- its what I've been told  have no data to compare it to.

When I bought my mill it came with a box of parts including 2 spare motors 8hp,13hp.The original owner said it ran fine with the 8hp...

[ronwood]

Engineer,

I bought a LT40HG25 last year.  A larger engine would have been better, but having a choice between hydraulics and bigger engine I went with the hydraulic. I am happy with the choice. One of the things that I like is I don't have to handle the log much once it is one the mill. To me a nice safety factor when turning 30 plus in. logs.  It all depends on what you can afford.

Have you taken at a look at sawmill exchange. Might be able to pick up a use one.

[MrMoo]

I upgraded to a hydraulic mill and I am glad I did. It makes it much more of a one man operation.
I agree with Ronwood's mention of the saftey factor when turning & handling larger logs you are not right up next to them.
I also feel it makes me more productive.
I have also found its not as hard on my loader/backhoe because I don't have to position the logs onto the machine just on the ground beside the machine. Easier on the clutch.

Oh ya, my machine is not an orange one.

[D._Frederick]

 Engineer,

What I have noticed standing at the side lines, is that the guy who has a manual  mill does not have as big a spare tire if he runs it much!  

[Tom]

I don't know what I would do without hydraulics around here.  Can you imagine what Egypt would look like today if the Pharaohs had hydraulics?

[Fla._Deadheader]

  To bad yer so far away. My son would buy that LT30 in a heartbeat and we would build hydraulics on it, AND add a feed drive, if it doesn't have one. ;D

[Captain]

Downside?  Price.  Get a swingblade.  Keep the Woodmizer.  Own them both ;D

Captain

[RevCant]

Okay.  You have a big pile of logs now.  In six months you won't.  But you've now invested 20 grand in a hydraulic mill.  You've got the monthly payments and the maintenance.  My first mill was a manual LT40.  I upgraded twice, the final upgrade being a LT40 Super with all the bells and whistles.  Then I sold it, put the money in the bank and bought a nice little swing blade mill from Mr. Peterson.  Today I cut 1900 bdft with that little mill that cost half of what you are going to pay for the hydraulic mill that has orange all over it.  After I got the log to the mill (which you still have to do with the hydraulic mills) I spend a couple minutes lining it up and chocking it and then I'm in business.

The point being, hydraulic bandmills are great if you want production and you're not afraid of the monthly payment and maintenance issues.  But there are other ways to go to eliminate these two issues and a swing blade is one of them
(IMHO :D)

RevCant

[ARKANSAWYER]

   When I went looking for mills it did not take long for me to decide to buy a hydralic one.  I have a LT40HDG25 and love it.  I can saw 1500 to 2000 bdft a day and not be all that tired and do it 6 days a week.   Saw any log that I can get up on it form 3 inch red buds to 42 inch water oaks. (both took some work to clamp)  The toe rollers are the greatest in big tapered logs and in boxing the heart in qsawing or timbers.   Come down and play with Wanda for a day and I bet you do not go home with doughts any more.   Me I am looking at a LT70 right now.
ARKANSAWYER

[Oregon_Sawyer]

Arky:  You will be blown away if you get the LT70. I still don't even come close to using the full potential.

loren

[Frank_Pender]

Any, I have up graded twice since I purchased my first Mobile dimension Mill.  I purchasee the prototype that they produces with hydraulics and just recently I purchased the one and only second mill they produced.  I have increased my products two fold with the hydraulic set up.

 I tried to give the first mill away to Oregon State University's logging division but the head fella felt that it was not very practice for students to be using a mill that they would not encounter in the real world of the timber and lumber industry.

So, I have decided to sell the mill instead.  I guess that free is not always a very good price.

[Tom]

What do you suppose he used for criteria to determine that the students would not encounter a Mobile Dimension in the real world of the timber and lumber industry.

I remember a blurb in Wood Mizers house organ that multi-gigaboardfoot mills in the future would have trouble being supplied with logs because of the difficulties in transportation.  It was surmised that the small portable sawmill industry would fill in a lot of the gaps.  It hasn't happened yet but we are a lot closer than we were in 1990.

Formal education seems to base its agenda on history and teach "what is" and "what was".  I've always wondered why schools can't have the foresight to direct students and prepare them for the world they might see rather than just produce auto-matons to fill the gaps in the existing world.

Universities don't do a very good job in teaching 'how to do' much less "how to think".  Getting a student to take off their blinders is really teaching.

They should  have taken your mill, if for  no other reason than to show another way it could be done.

There I go again...................... :-/


 

[ARKANSAWYER]

  If it is free I will come and get it.  I could teach the hillbillys how they do it out west.  It would really open some eyes around here.  Most folks around here have never even seen a swing blade.  There was one at an auction last summer that I went and bid on and most folks at the auction could not believe that you could even make a board and not cut your leg off.  I bet that MD would really blow their mind.
ARKANSAWYER

[MM]

I would have to say the only downside to going Hyd. is the cost factor. I've run everymill WM has built and there is a place for all. I couldn't run my custom sawing with a manual mill. An old friend of mine is retired from Cummins engine co. He always says "It only cost a little more to go first class". In my mind a wood-mizer with hyd. is first class. I know my payments are higher at the bank becuse I bought a hyd vsr a manual. but, my the mill has paid for itself and other things. I'm not sorry at all I bought a hyd. The only thing I'm sorry is I didn't buy a super. I could use a few extra horse's. Matt

[woodrat]

Downsides? well, there's all that extra lumber to stack at the end of each day, and more sawdust and slabs to move as well. And all those years that you would have taken off you life using the manual mill you will now have back, and you'll have to figure out what to do with them... :D

I ran a non-hydraulic WM as a portable business for over five years before I got a hydraulic. I can hardly believe now that I did some of the jobs that I did with the manual...

[Swede]

Yesterday a get a video from Ellington, MO.   I know´d before I want a hydraulic mill, now I really have to get one, in one way or an other.
I watched 5 orange, one green and one red  band sawmill before I  found my manual "Amerika-Sågen". Some were manual and some were hydraulic.
If there is any possibility I´ll buy a hydraulic, a 4-poster and it´s blue.......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tom wrote: "Getting a student to take off their blinders is really teaching. "
Sometimes, when I´ve got a flash of genius,  customers at the maschinery side ask about my education.
My answer: -I´ve no education that get me inhibited! ;D


Swede *gone to look at that video again*

[DansSawmill]

hmmmm,
 i've had a lt30 for years now, mulled the idea of "upgrading" several times, in the end i went and added hydraulic log loading for about $500.... the problem is imediate payback for me anyways, i can add on hyd clamping for $1000 if i buy wm's clamp, alot cheaper if i make my own.. i have seen several mills go under due to buying newer,more expensive equipment...so i'm just using my lt30 and every once in a while i add something to it.. if you are mostly cutting at home , its amazing what a good layout of your shop and proper use of gravity can do for ya, for example i had my log deck on the uphill side of the mill ( couple of I beams laid across ties) and its not hard at all to load a log from there, quicker than any hydraulics... got a overhead I beam with a chainfall for the large ties, if i'm felling weak... you get the idea, whatever you put on the mill still has to be removed by hand....
anyways, i've decided that this mill is paid for, it will be upgraded by me slowly and will be the one i use in my retirement to have fun with....
dan 8)

[Engineer]

Well, my dilemma sorta solved itself.  First, I decided it wasn't worth the extra cost and the monthly payments.  My mill's paid for, and after I saw my house frame, everything else can take its'  time.  Second, I called a local guy who has an LT40 Super Hydraulic, and he has a bunch of white pine he needs to take down and will cut what I need (the long pieces) out of his own trees.  It's going to cost me less to buy the beams from him than it will to have him saw my trees.  I just won't get the extra 2x and 1x stock out of the sides.  I also won't have to take as many trees of my land, and won't have to pay the logger to cut and haul 22' lengths.  Win-win all around.

So now all I have to cut are 16' and under, and I can handle that with my mill.  The log deck is built uphill of the mill, so it is reasonably easy to load logs.  

I'd still love a hydraulic mill someday, but I'll save my pennies.

[ScottAR]

Frank Pender,

Do you know if Mobile Dimension has any plans to add hydraulics to their current line in the future?  Seems natural to me, but I don't always think like most people   ;)