Which Wood Burning Boiler?

[southernilfarm]

Hello everyone,

    I'm new to this forum and will be purchasing an outdoor wood burning boiler soon.  I've been heating my house with a Harmon TL200 wood stove for several years.  While the Harmon works well for our house, we are adding a large garage (it will be well insulated) and an in-ground pool to the heating mix.

    Local vendors are limited to Central Boiler and Nature's Comfort.  Central Boiler is well established in this area and their systems/dealer seem top notch.  The local Nature's Comfort folks are newer at this business, and I haven't found many people who own them here. 

    Can anyone offer commentary on these two companies/products? 

    We live on a 40 acre farm with no neighbors in sight, so I'm not too worried about anyone complaining about smoke, other than myself.  I'm considering one of the newer EPA certified burners as I want to minimize smoke/smell  - don't want to be out at the pool and smell the wood burner kick in during summer.  I also like the extra heat available from the more efficient stoves/less wood to feed. 

    Again, your thoughts are most welcome.

Be well,
Mike

[thecfarm]

southernilfarm,welcome to the forum. I think an OWB big enough to heat the house,garage and pool with cost a few dollars.  :D But would be a real good idea. You live in Southern IL right?

[southernilfarm]

Thanks!  Oh yeah, these things are not cheap!  That said, if I were to heat it all with propane, I'd go broke quickly.  Yes, I'm located in southern IL.  Not really that cold compared to New England, but enough to make you uncomfortable. 

Mike

[gspren]

  I like my Portage & Main but when you say that Central Boiler is established in your area and has a top notch dealer thats the way I'd be leaning. A good local dealer means a lot!

[Sonofman]

southernilfarm, as gspern says, the dealer makes a lot of difference. I have a CB 4030 that I purchased last summer and started using this winter. My only regret is that I did not do this sooner. I have a great dealer, as well. The outlay for this will be enough I would be hesitant to go with an unproven boiler and company. I personally know nothing about Nature's Comfort.

I live in SC, so we have even less winter than you do. My advice in your situation is to consider the dealer, carefully size the boiler, and find out if you are restriced by local law to the newer and more expensive gassifier models. They burn less wood over the course of the winter, but require a little more maintenance, not a lot. They are also about twice as expensive at the initial purchase. I am happy with my boiler, but I did not feel with the mild winters and the availability of firewood, a gasser would make sense for me.

You also need to consider where the boiler will be put. Do you have neighbors close by that will be adversely affected by smoke? If you do, a gasser may be your only real option no matter what else. Also consider the cost of the underground waterline. The Central Boiler Thermopex is an excellent product but it is not cheap. Underground waterline is NOT a place to try to scrimp and save money. Cheap waterline can double or more your wood consumption. Consider boiler placement to limit underground line length. Circulation pump(s) will also need to be sized based on this information.

Are you going to heat domestic hot water also? Will all the house be radient underslab heat or forced air? Where is the pool relative to everything else? These are some of the questions to consider as you size a boiler. Give us some more info and the very knowledgeable people here on this forum will help a great deal.

[doctorb]

Try to establish how much heat you will need.   It sounds like you are going to have pretty high heat requirments.  Don't make this selcetion by brand, make it by 1) dealer, 2) BTU output of OWB, and finally3) manufacturer.  the e-3200 by CB is a beast.  I would be checking the burn times and the output of any potential purchase and go big, with your heat requirments.

[Sonofman]

As the Doc says, it is much better to be too big than too small, especially with the pool. I know they require a lot of heat.

[southernilfarm]

I'm trying to determine my heating/boiler size requirements.  Will have a pool selection made this week, and that is based on gallons heated.  The building I'm putting up is large, 70 X 40, with a finished apartment upstairs.  It will be 2x6 framed construction with plenty of insulation and high quality doors and windows.  The house I'm currently heating completely with a Harmon TL200 wood stove.  We completely gutted and rebuilt this place with adequate insulation (R38 in ceilings/R11 in walls).  In addition to heating the pool and buildings, we will heat our hot water with this system as well.

My Central Boiler dealer spent 3 hours simply educating me on what can be done.  Now I am attempting to nail down the boiler to purchase.  I'm leaning toward the EPA certified stoves as it appears they produce less smoke and use less wood.  I think the E-2400 might be the right stove, but this is more a feeling than anything else.  My dealer has not yet recommended a stove size as he is not completely comfortable with the entire plan.  We are meeting again next week to work out details.

The Nature's comfort stove is much cheaper.

I'll post a drawing with distances/dimensions of the property for your consideration soon. 

I spent 3 years internet shopping for my tractor before I felt comfortable making the purchase and I'm happy with what I have.  Hope to be equally happy with the OWB.

Be well,
Mike

[thecfarm]

I would also go to your pool dealer too. There must be someone that knows how much it will take to heat a pool,with a OWB. I think some do it with gas? Yes,it may take a while to track that someone down,but they must be out there.Maybe a pool forum??? IMO the house is real easy,but a pool loses heat. Do you have the pool yet? You really need someone to draw up a plan too,someone that really know what they are doing. Maybe another holding tank to keep more hot water in too?
I bet I spent 5 years looking at sawmills and OWB. When I saw an OWB and someone outside I would stop and talk to them. learned alot in 5 years stopping and talking.

[leonz]

I'm trying to determine my heating/boiler size requirements.  Will have a pool selection made this week, and that is based on gallons heated.  The building I'm putting up is large, 70 X 40, with a finished apartment upstairs.  It will be 2x6 framed construction with plenty of insulation and high quality doors and windows.  The house I'm currently heating completely with a Harmon TL200 wood stove.  We completely gutted and rebuilt this place with adequate insulation (R38 in ceilings/R11 in walls).  In addition to heating the pool and buildings, we will heat our hot water with this system as well.

My Central Boiler dealer spent 3 hours simply educating me on what can be done.  Now I am attempting to nail down the boiler to purchase.  I'm leaning toward the EPA certified stoves as it appears they produce less smoke and use less wood.  I think the E-2400 might be the right stove, but this is more a feeling than anything else.  My dealer has not yet recommended a stove size as he is not completely comfortable with the entire plan.  We are meeting again next week to work out details.

The Nature's comfort stove is much cheaper.

I'll post a drawing with distances/dimensions of the property for your consideration soon. 

I spent 3 years internet shopping for my tractor before I felt comfortable making the purchase and I'm happy with what I have.  Hope to be equally happy with the OWB.

Be well,
Mike

About your proposed boiler needs:


You have to realise that you have to keep this thing
fed and the units as they now are sold do not have
much water capacity/storage and the fire boxes are
not efficient or well designed in my opinion.

AS you already have purchased a Harmon I would invest in
one of thier wood and coal boilers or a coal stoker.

The thing is is you have 2,000 gallons of stored hot water for use it will
take very little energy to bring the heated mass of water bacl up to
temperature and to hold it there.

Expanding further on this:

if you purchased the smallest Harmon coal stoker they offer you will be able to
heat all your water using coal very efficiently if you add storage or simply having a coal
stockpile to feed the hopper.


I plan on replacing my 31 year old wood and coal boiler with an
SF360 and water mass storage with at least 4 insulated tanks
from the New Horizons importer.


We have 2 Harmon pellet stokers in our family and my relatives cannot
say enough good about them as well as another coal stoker which was
also excellent in construction.


I would recommend that you purchase a Harman wood and coal boiler
like the SF360 and purchase a small herd of the New Horizons insulated
storage tanks for what you need. 4 of them would give you 1,960 gallons
of hot water-not including the 42 gallons of hot water in the boiler.
this would give you 2,002 gallons of storage AND thermal masss which
will aid considerably in both providing heat and maintaining temperature
as the heat loss given off by the storage volume will not require that much
heat to be put back into the system and as a matter of course the boiler
will be burning flat out with lttle smoke as it will not be idleing near as
much as a conventional OWB would be.


Having dealt with a heated pool for many years I can and will advise you to consider
having a lap pool built for your use as insurance companies are not amenable to deep
pools with diving boards. Water slides are something they will tolerate though.


Now as far as maintaining a pool goes you have to look at how
often you will have to vacuum it and how much surface area the
pool will have as this is an automatic source of heat loss.

You can purchase pool insulating blankets to reduce this loss to a minimum.

WHY A LAP POOL????????????

The lap pool will be easier to maintain BECAUSE it is both shallow and
and narrower AND the pool will be easier to build as the excavation
is shallower.

The lap pool will also permit you to install tile rather than a vinyl liner WHICH
degrades over time due to the chlorine and the exposure to sunlight.

The installation of tile will be a one time installation for you and you will
never have to worry about a liner that has holes in it or could have a pin
hole where water could enter.


A lap pool that is 5 feet deep 50 feet long and 12 feet wide filled to a
four foot depth will need 10,000 cubic feet of water times 6.42851
gallons equals 64,285 gallons which is slightly more than 3 times the volume
of a pool that is 16 by 32 by 8 feet feet deep at the deep end.

The shallower lap pool will be easier to maintain as it is easier to
vacuum with less effort and easier to heat when needed.

You also have to understand that your insurance company will more than
likely require you to install a perimeter fence to maintain your  liability
insurance so take that into consideration as a factor-ours did!!!





ALSO:

The pool will have to be winterised if the water is left in it and a safety
pool cover will have be installed every fall if the water is left in it.

If the pool is emptied every year you do  not have to shock the pool water with
chemicals when you wish open it as the water can be delivered to you to fill it
over time in the spring.

The pool will need a safety cover if it is emptied completely as well.
The messh type pool covers are an excellent pool cover as they will not hold water.
and it will be easier to remove them when  you open the pool.   

[southernilfarm]

Thanks for all the replies and information.

Regarding the pool - we are most likely going with a 41X10.5 foot lap pool.  It is a leftover fiberglass unit from a local pool installer we can get for about half we were planning to spend.  Once we hammer this deal down, I'll be able to better define our needs.  We live on a 40 acre farm - very secluded.  There are no local codes to worry about.  That said, we'll be putting a building over this thing so it can be used all year and it should suffice for a fence. 

Harmon does make a good stove.  That said, our TL200 has an afterburner chamber that is inoperative.  Well, not really inoperative - it spews a fine ash whenever we engage the afterburner.  Spoke with the closest good dealer and they believe the chamber has been compromised (popped weld or something).  I will be disassembling the stove once the heating season is over to closely inspect everything.  Until this problem popped up, that stove was perfect; lots of heat, very efficient, and a large ash bucket.  Hope to run it down in the spring.  There are no decent and close Harmon dealers in this area. 

Central Boiler is the big name in this area.  They don't have an ash bucket which I find interesting.  Prefer to just pull it out and dump it like the Harmon wood stove.  They are crazy expensive in my mind.  Still in sticker shock. 

Will keep you posted as this progresses.

Thanks,
Mike

[boilerman101]

I found no need for a ash pan in either the Classic model I burned previously or the Eclassic I burn now.
Unlike indoor stoves, which I have also burned, I cleaned ash out of my Classic abouit once every 8-10 weeks with a shovel and 20 gallon steel garbage can. Took about 8 minutes tops. Just burned down to a hot coal bed, pulled coals to the top then pushed them off to the side, shoveled powdery ash out, rolled coals to opposite side,shoveled ash out. Pulled coals back to front near door, reloaded with wood and it took right off. No need to restart another fire. Usually got about 15-18 gallons of ash out. Eclassic2400 I just open reaction chamber door and shovel out 2-3 gallons of ash every 4 weeks. Again no need for fire to go out or start a new fire. I don't see any reason I would have wanted or need a ash pan for either of these boilers. Both great choices by the way as both treat me well.

[patvetzal]

Whichever boiler or pool you buy, you can save big on heating by adding extra insulation to the sides and even bottom of the pool. An inch or so of foam will make a huge difference....

[711ac]

Go with a "gasser"!
And like air conditioning, I thought it was just as important to size your heating load TO the boiler and not just "go big". I also have a wood boiler and had the system (sized) & designed by a 3rd party. The "dealer" at this point is a non issue and his convienient location is meaningless. This greatly expands your choices, and IMO has a whole lot to do with your ultimate satisfaction with your investment.
Keep up your reasearch, it will pay off.

[stratton]

Leon, You are the best...COAL COAL COAL !!!!!! The sf 360 boiler is super close to the design of my D.S. aqua gem 3200. Keep pushing the black gold!!!!! 1/2 coal and 1/2 wood for my overnight burns is the ticket.Il farm i would keep the harmon for shoulder season burning. Keep oxygen out of your system and use boiler protection on your return line.

[overclocking]

This thread is like 2 years old, just a heads up. Im guessing he found his boiler by now.

[711ac]

oops :D