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uphill versus downhill skidding

Started by a REAL dirtbag, December 21, 2009, 07:01:43 PM

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a REAL dirtbag

Brand new to FF here, howdy!  :)

I'm looking into uphill versus downhill skidding, and want to know about your experiences. I've worked with USFS and we recommend downhill skidding here in the Sierra unless an adverse skid is absolutely necessary. I'm a soil scientist with a forestry background, and when I've seen adverse runs it's usually pretty ugly, with deep skid trails and more plowing and gouging, even with grapple skidders.

I was surprised to find that US EPA recommends uphill skidding whenever possible. The idea is that the water running off the trail will get dissipated in the less-disturbed lands below. Whereas a downhill skid will concentrate runoff towards the landing and increase the erosion hazard.

I would think uphill skidding use lots more machine power, may cause slippage since the machine wants to slide downhill, etc. Is that true? What have you all seen in terms of soil disturbance and uphill versus downhill?

CX3

It may be different in other parts of this great country, but where I cut timber its up hill both ways, and snow two feet deep:)
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

woodmills1

when I was a child, long ago it was uphill both ways through snow to change the TV channels.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

stonebroke

What difference does it make. You just haul out to your landing, might be uphill might be downhill, might be up and then down. Leastways that is the way in the northeast.

Stonebroke

ErikC

  A lot of the units around here were yarder/tractor combo, and the landings were mostly at the top, as they usually are with yarders. I don't think erosion has anything to do with it on those I've seen. On steep ground It's safer to go up if at all possible.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

Maine372

hey guys, pretty new here but got a fair amount of experince so figured id throw in my two cents.

the last logger i spoke with that was on steep ground with a cable skidder was yarding down hill. he had significantly modified the back of his 518 cat so as to keep the hitch behind him. he was complaining that when the wood slid down against the machine the chokers would losen up and come unhooked. he said he prefered pulling up hill slightly so that the chokers would stay tight on the wood but not so steep uphill that it significantly affected his fuel consumption.

seems to make sense to me. i havent logged anything that would be considered steep so ill have to trust this older fella.   take it for what its worth.

beenthere

EPA's reasoning seems to make sense, that the pull point would have trails that radiated out (and down) thus dispersing any water in a fan-like fashion. But it seems you have answered your own question with the "adverse" skidding being the best one.

Pulling downhill to a focal point would concentrate that water to one location.

Also seems easier to lift a log pulling uphill than downhill.

REAL  Welcome to the forum
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

ford62783

well i agree with both but in season ive found cum spring and when it rains down hill does disrupt the soil but here it is always down and up or up and down cant really be choosey
timberjack 240e

Kevin

QuoteUphill or downhill skid

Skidding direction should be decided by the Forest Authority Officer. However, where possible, skidding should be carried out uphill. Skid tracks are based upon assessment of the following factors:

    road and landing location (upper slope, lower slope);

    watercourse crossings (to be minimised);

    potential damage to soil caused by skidding machinery (minimise);

    safety;

    uphill skidding of large logs, with the butt end of the log raised, is likely to cause less soil damage than downhill skidding;

    soil types and conditions will affect machine traction and therefore skid direction.

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/AC142E/ac142e0c.htm

fishpharmer

a REAL dirtbag and Maine 372,  welcome to the forum.  This is a great place.  Tell us more about yourselves and hang out a while on these cold winter days.  (of course this is a great place anytime of year)
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
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woodtroll

This is interesting. Must of us skid to where the landing is which is based on where the road is. The EPA standard seems to be a narrow view of the situation.
Down is preferred if possible here. This is why: less wear and tear, less fuel use, and less digging for traction going up, it is quicker and the top of the hill is usually a ridge line.
I would think the butt of the logs should be lifted whichever way your going. If you water bar your skid trail or put slash on it there should not be a lot of water running down it. If you are whole tree skidding pine(see the whole tree thread) your damage is even less likely to the soil. Log length skidding, keep an eye on the soil the logs are traveling on it is getting tilled up going up or down.
So look at the big picture, log smart. If your skidder is digging it's doing some damage. if it is a wet area or a stream at the bottom look at going up. If it is steep, should you be skidding on it? maybe go down, fix your skid trails. keep them in good shape. We all need to do our best in our area, producing our products in our regions the best we can.
I guess it gets my hair up when the EPA or anyone else says something should only be done one certain way.

stumphugger

On the NF here, and this is also what I've observed, uphill skidding is OK up to about 15% slope.  Any more and then you are having to drop the logs, move the cat up the hill, winch them to the cat without getting that one end suspension, and repeat.  The skid trails are waterbarred.  I find throwing slash on them is better for erosion control than subsoiling  for partial cuts.  Subsoiling will pop the roots of the residual trees in our woods causing a real loss of growth when the tree is blown down.  We have pumice soils which don't compact well, at least that is what I observe on the ground. 

Where are your roads?  An alternative is to use a yarder.  If the road and landing will be at the top, and you have adequate amounts and sizes of trees for guylines and tailholds, plus deflection, I'd go that way.  Yarders are still less expensive that helicopter logging and are light on the land.  Are there any yarder (skyline) loggers in the area?  What is the tree value?  Volume per acre?  Economics seem to get overlooked in the Forest Service planning.  Higher costs for logging--helicopter, mean less $$ bid and less$$ for KV and stewardship projects. 

If it is a short distance, less than 700 feet, a yoader might work. 

Go out and watch some logging.  Get down into the unit and see what goes on in the brush.  Ask questions of the loggers.  They will probably do some kidding about you, but they want to have you know what the on the ground operations are like so you can plan with a better understanding.  Around here we have some loggers who understand the local conditions just as well as the soils scientists. 

Now, are you sure you aren't confused with yarder logging?  Downhill yarding with a yarder is not recommended.  There has been quite a bit done in this area,  but we try to avoid it when possible.   

I have some good photos of skyline operations and can post them if you are interested and if I can figure out how on this site. 



aksawyer

This question was asked alot in the Pacific Northwest,about 50 years ago,whenthe rubber tired machine proved highly useful.Only sktd uphill when a highlead is at the ridgetop.End of story....harder on equipment ...harder on fuel....harder on the ground......just water bar your skid trails when done.always put our logging roads in across bottom of all sales.aksawyer

stumphugger

Quote from: aksawyer on December 25, 2009, 02:55:14 AM
This question was asked alot in the Pacific Northwest,about 50 years ago,whenthe rubber tired machine proved highly useful.Only sktd uphill when a highlead is at the ridgetop.End of story....harder on equipment ...harder on fuel....harder on the ground......just water bar your skid trails when done.always put our logging roads in across bottom of all sales.aksawyer

Doesn't work that way anymore.  Not with current BMPs and watchdog groups plus road building being a bad thing.  Highlead is ONLY used effectively in clearcuts.  Skyline is the way to go in steep partial cuts.  The two get confused.  Highlead can be done with a basic two drum yarder.  Usually no carriage, just a hunk of iron between the haulback and mainline called butt rigging.  Chokers are hooked on that.  There is no lateral yarding capability beyond what the choker can reach.   

A skyline will have a line hung up in a tree, or on a stump.  A carriage will ride on that line, called the skyline, and the mainline, or skid line, is pulled down by the carriage.  Around here the carriage usually works by gravity--flyer or shotgun.  The line can be pulled out from the carriage and into standing timber, where the chokers are hooked to logs and then yarded into the skyline corridor and on up the hill.   There are many skyline configurations.  When downhilling, a haulback has to be used to get the carriage back up the hill.
We will do downhill skyline when roadbuilding to the top is not allowed and the ground is not conducive to using a skidder or cat.  Productivity is cut in half though.  I've not seen any erosion problems.  The ground that is disturbed with proper skylining will only be a couple feet or so wide.   Enough the sun is shining and I need to get out!








   

timberjack240

i prefer downhill skiddin ive always been taught its easier to roll the ball down hill then to roll it up hill .. you can pull more down than you can up w less fuel you can take 5 down w you in 3rd gear and unhook some at hte botom if need be.. where as you might be only able to take two or three up over in second  .. if your doin subcontract work liek we do  production is key.. we always put water bars in and its reseeded .. im w aka sawyer on this one.. take em down over when your using a skidder

tonich

Quote from: woodtroll on December 22, 2009, 03:40:19 PM
Down is preferred if possible here. This is why: less wear and tear, less fuel use, and less digging for traction going up, it is quicker...

This is the reason!

Though uphill skidding is much more environmentally friendly. Besides the erosion concern mentioned above, it helps to easier rule the logs/sections on their way out to keep the standing trees and young growth from damages. This is in case you deal with silvicultural system, different from clear cut, where technology of skidding is essential for achieving the long term goals of silviculture.  ;)
Downhill horse skidding in short logs is also environmental friendly and tends to make less impact onto soil and trees.

Ianab

Here it depends pretty much on the terrain.

Most foresty is on steeper land that is marginal for grazing. But there is a big difference in terrain. My old place was big rolling hills with steep gullies. No access via the low lying ground, you had to get in via tracks over the higher ground which was flatter and well drained.   Logs would be winched up from the steeper gullies with a skidder or bulldozer and then hauled to a landing to be loaded onto the trucks.

Another area, maybe 30 miles away was also steep, but a different contour. The river flats were wide and easily driven over, but the hills went to steep (razor back) ridges. So they would drop the trees and then drag them down onto the flat and then to a landing

The two techinques were not interchangable due to the terrain.

In a moderate terrain then the erosion vs ease of skidding becomes an issue for sure. But again it depends on your terrain and soil types

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Ed_K

 yrs ago i watched my bil come down a hill in the pasture w/jd350b with 4 whole trees 12"to18" 60' long.By the time he was 2/3 down he was pointing back up and the trees were pulling him backwards  ;D . I was rolling, he was starried eyed and white. Oh, glare ice on what was 6" of snow.
Ed K

a REAL dirtbag

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments and info. :P

Yeah, I ultimately agree that uphill is harder on equipment AND harder on the ground.

If you follow your BMPs and waterbar your trails, you really shouldn't have water running down them, whether they were used uphill or downhill.

And I still think that, all things being equal (you've got access, landings, etc), in order to minimize soil disturbance I'd recommend skidding downhill rather than uphill. Now, downhill doesn't mean into a drainage or riparian area..we always need to watch out for those...but I think it's ultimately lighter on the land.

Happy New Year!  :D

Dirtbag

stumphugger

If youse guys wanna yard up da hill, eh, why don't youse guys use yarders?  Road at da top, steep, go wid dah yarder, youuuuuuknooooowwwww. 

Nope, not a yooper, but I lived pretty darn close to dose guys for a couple of years.
Youse guys go or no hey. 

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