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Machine for S4S and T&G?

Started by Brad_bb, November 05, 2017, 09:32:17 AM

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Don P

I ran an SCMI throughfeed planer/molder, Italian/Rockwell machine. A nice throughfeed. It was pre computer but setups were no more than a half hour or so. It had a longbed jointer table infeed to the bottom head first. It had adjustable light hold in and an adjustable horizontal fence on the first head as well. That bottom head had an edge jointing cutter so as the board left the first head it had been faced and jointed... within light reason. I did blow the brass jackscrew nuts on that practically new machine feeding poorly thicknessed lumber through it. After that if the wood was seriously thick and thin I would preplane it but that was fairly rare.

A large local contractor helped finance the machine, running custom trim for him was priority. We also ran cabinet and furniture stock for our shop and several other cabinet shops. Another good hit was reproducing trim for local historic register homes. We paid off the 5 year note in 2. The boss would say you feed dimes into the machine and dollars come out.

I've run an old Berlin pushfeed that was a brute, slow setups but it worked. I have an old Vonnegut 6x12 pushfeed, neat machine but too far gone. If anyone needs parts before I scrap it holler.

Brad_bb

Reading all the responses....onsite for a timberframe raising today.  I'll still check here at night.  Got an offer from someone on here to look at a logosol after I get home in a couple weeks.  If nothing else, I'll at least get a little familiar with what they offer and the pro's and cons.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

TKehl

Yellowhammer has a very good point.  You will need something to flatten and straighten the lumber.  A jointer + a Woodmaster should get you by.  The Woodmaster has a gang rip saw option.

Also, T&G can be run on the Woodmaster without the 3 sider if a jig is used.  Pictures:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,92381.msg1422056.html#msg1422056

From what I've seen, you would need to at least skip plane to get dimensions close enough for the Logosol etc. to be happy.
http://timbergreenforestry.com/Making%20Flooring.html


I do beg forgiveness for my sin of suggesting a XL.   :)  My thought was that for a small run it would be better than running multiple times through a shaper, but I've never actually been around an XL in person.


Real question would be volume.  Is this just for lumber for your dream house or do you plan for this to be an add on enterprise? My opinions are geared toward the former. 

Next would be how much space do you have?  A Logosol or Woodmaster can be happy enough on casters.  The Wenigs, Vonneguts, Mattisons, etc. really need a dedicated spot.

Weight can be overcome even without equipment.  I moved my big moulder with nothing more than hydraulic jacks, chain, timbers, a come along, and pipe. It weights close to 8k Lbs.

Best of luck with the raising!
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

SlowJoeCrow

Well, I can't find the Woodmaster flyer advertising their new 4 head moulder, sometimes I throw that stuff away so I am not tempted!! :D :D  I don't remember the exact price but it was under 20k.  It was three phase though. 

A note on ripping with the Woodmaster 718/725:  you are limited on stock thickness to about 1 1/2" or 1 5/8".  The biggest blade you can put on it is 6.5" diameter without serious modification.  Any bigger and the blade tips will hit the feed rollers.

Kbeitz

Quote from: SlowJoeCrow on November 07, 2017, 08:15:41 AM
Well, I can't find the Woodmaster flyer advertising their new 4 head moulder, sometimes I throw that stuff away so I am not tempted!! :D :D  I don't remember the exact price but it was under 20k.  It was three phase though. 

A note on ripping with the Woodmaster 718/725:  you are limited on stock thickness to about 1 1/2" or 1 5/8".  The biggest blade you can put on it is 6.5" diameter without serious modification.  Any bigger and the blade tips will hit the feed rollers.

Is this what your looking for ?

https://www.woodmastertools.com/725

Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

TKehl

Nope.  I just got the flyer in my email.  I'd post it, but I'm not sure they want it overly public yet since I can't find any info searching online...

It's a WM-4000.  (WM for Woodmaster).  Kind of unfortunate name considering WoodMizer has a 4000 model and Woodmaster stoves has a 4400 model...

It is available for single phase (70 Amp) or 3 phase.  Looks like 15 total HP.  5 on top, 3 each on bottom and sides and 3/4 for feed.  Up to 16" wide and 4" thick. 

Lookswise, it reminds me of a large laser engraver with a top that hinges up. 

Weightwise, it is in line with Logosol and Baker 412.

I'm intrigued.   :)
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

SlowJoeCrow

Here ya go... I gave them a call and had them email me a spec sheet on it.  It must be pretty new, he said they are still developing spiral heads for it.  Best give them a call for more info.  Seems like it would fit the bill, but keep in mind I know NOTHING about 4 head molders.  I was wrong, it looks like you can get this in single phase.  So a new machine, single phase for under 20k.

Darrel

Any moulder that is worth its salt will do all the straightening you need unless you start with some really wonky lumber.  Machines such as Woodmaster are not really moulders, they're nothing more than single headed planers that have been adapted to make moulding.  With these machines you need 2 flat/straight sides before you turn the machine on.  Woodmaster is a good machine but you have to understand its limitations.

Brad says he wants to do S4S and T&G in one step and in my mind this removes the Woodmaster class of moulders from the list of options.

My 2¢ worth.  :D
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

SlowJoeCrow

I agree if we limit that observation to the Woodmaster 712/718/725 series.  They are single head machines.  This new WM4000 appears to be a true four head machine.

Will_Johnson

The Woodmaster 4000 is a 4-Head Machine. It will surface or mold four sides in one pass. Available in 3-Phase and Single Phase. Made here in Kansas City. Marketing materials are definitely very basic at this point. But we are happy to send info on the machine in the mail or by email. Just email info@woodmastertools.com. There's also basic info and images on our Facebook page.

For any molding operation, whether one, two, three or four-sided (which includes T&G), material needs to be fairly straight and fairly consistent. That's a limitation of all molding machines I know of, from the most basic single-sided machine to $100,000 Weinigs. You can't push through pieces of widely varying width or thickness -- or with sweeps, twists or bows -- and expect perfect molding to come out of the other end.

That doesn't mean material needs to be straight-lined but it does mean within about 1/16". We do have some folks using dried, rough-cut material to make flooring with the machine, like you'd get off of a sawmill. They just have to cull out bad boards (sweep, twist, bow) as they run the material.

redprospector

Molders are the same as sawmills in one respect.
Junk in, junk out.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Brad_S.

 I run a Logosol PH260 with a rotary phase converter.  I found a Taiwanese made double sided planer that I use to presize my blanks for thickness and I use the sawmill to straight edge my stock.  Feeding the molder without presizing was a nightmare despite fairly consistent lumber.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

woodworker9

Brad

I see you are in Joliet, Illinois.  I am up in Crystal Lake, not too far away from you.  If you ever want to take a run up and get a crash course in 3 phase machinery, and getting set up, I'd be happy to show you the ropes, in person.  I have a 20 hp and  10 hp rotary phase converters, as well as several VFD's operating machines in my woodshop and metalworking shop, and would be happy to spend some time answering questions and showing you the ropes.



03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Will_Johnson

As Jeff says, you should always look at all options. Used equipment is always something you should consider. As with any choice, there are up-sides and down-sides to both sides of the equation.

With that said, I respectfully but strongly disagree with Jeff's implication that Woodmaster (or, for that matter, Logosol) equipment is not made to run "all day, every day." We have thousands of owners who do just that. The 4000 is a new machine in the line but we've put our nearly 100 years of institutional knowledge into making it a machine that will run hard and last for years.

I would never claim that the 4000 will "run circles" around the machines Jeff mentions, because I don't have first-hand knowledge of those machines. Nor, I suspect, does Jeff have first-hand knowledge of the Woodmaster 4000. What I can tell you is that the 4000 will run material as fast as a couple of reasonably healthy and hard-working guys can keep up with.

TKehl

Quote from: woodworker9 on November 08, 2017, 09:24:14 AM
He has 2 different 8" Mattison molders running full time in his shop, and he also has a smaller Woods for sale right now for cheap.

Sounds like "Panda Dan".  If so, it looks like a good machine, but Brad would like to run up to 10" wide (Post #5).  Dan's Woods moulder will only go 4".   :(
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Brad_bb

Tkehl, I "would like" but not a hard requirement on the width.  If I could at least machine 8" wide material that would work too.  4" wide is no good, because 2x6 would definitely be a requirement, and 2x8 finished material would be a want.

Jeff, thank you so much for your offer.  I will take you up on that when we can.

I'm going to get some education here before I make any decisions.  I have to consider my space availability in my mill shop(my woodmizer is inside) and how much real estate it would take up, and power requirements versus what's available.  I don't plan to make material day in and day out, but as my milled material air dries, I can run batches though as desired, making flooring, T&G, or S4S boards.  I have milled mostly beams up to now for building timber frame(for me).  But I'm planning to do more T&G and S4S in the near future.  I don't mill full time.  On average 3 days a week.  Some weeks more,  some weeks when have to be away from home, less.  It's just me and my buddy John and I'll be losing him after next summer.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

YellowHammer

How easy is it to S4S random width lumber with a molder? 
Surfacing various widths of stock is something we routinely do to reduce waste.  Or do you surface top and bottom, and only one edge?
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

TKehl

They really won't handle random width.  Better to group by size.

I could see surfacing 2 sides pretty easy.  I could also potentially see surfacing 3 sides with the right machine, but mine wouldn't like it.  Would need the right feed rollers etc.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

longtime lurker

Ive been known to skip plane 3 sides random width through a throughfeed machine... park the left cutterhead out wide and let the rights do a jointing pass. Obviously therr are limits to how much jointing occurs before the workpiece kicks sideways but it's okay.

Even with digital sizing you don't want to be changing sizes any more than you have to, so batch run is still better. How random is random? My material tends to only vary by shrinkage rate... we cut set sizes green to mould to set sizes dry.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

woodworker9

Quote from: Will_Johnson on November 08, 2017, 10:18:37 AM
As Jeff says, you should always look at all options. Used equipment is always something you should consider. As with any choice, there are up-sides and down-sides to both sides of the equation.

With that said, I respectfully but strongly disagree with Jeff's implication that Woodmaster (or, for that matter, Logosol) equipment is not made to run "all day, every day." We have thousands of owners who do just that. The 4000 is a new machine in the line but we've put our nearly 100 years of institutional knowledge into making it a machine that will run hard and last for years.

I would never claim that the 4000 will "run circles" around the machines Jeff mentions, because I don't have first-hand knowledge of those machines. Nor, I suspect, does Jeff have first-hand knowledge of the Woodmaster 4000. What I can tell you is that the 4000 will run material as fast as a couple of reasonably healthy and hard-working guys can keep up with.

Will

After reading your comments, and re-reading mine, I decided that I wasn't saying what I wanted to say, so I deleted most of the post.  No offense was ever intentionally intended.

Brad

If you ever want to take a ride up and learn about 3 phase, I'll be happy to spend some time with you.

I wasn't suggesting the 4" Woods that my friend has for sale as a solution to your problem, but just as an option to learn more about the vintage molders.  A lot of these vintage molders, like 8" Mattison's, sell frequently for a couple grand or less, but there is always a learning curve, and my experience with all my vintage machinery is that I just expect to take each and every one apart and do a full rebuild before putting them back into service.  That may or may not suit your needs or desires.

Cheers.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

thechknhwk

Brad I'm sure you are already aware, but the logosol is rated up to 10" in width.  I find much over 8" however and the top planer head dust extraction plugs up.

Darrel

I sent for more information on the WM4000.  From the picture, and that is all the info they have on line, it looks very similar to the Logosol.  For me, a must have feature of a 4 head moulder is vertical adjustment for the side heads and horizontal adjustment for top and bottom. If it doesn't have both, I won't waste my time with it.  My reasoning is simple. I once operated a Stetson Ross XL that had neither and a setup that took an hour on the Vonegut, Mattson, Paulson or Weinig would take 3 or 4 on the XL.

Edit to add:  Even in a "hobby" shop where high production is not a goal, one has better ways to spend their time than fiddling around with frustrating setups that should be easy.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

SlowJoeCrow

I just received the fold-out brochure in snail mail, it has a few more pictures and a bit more information on the machine.  It looks pretty attractive to me, but like I said before, I have no experience with 4 head molders. :D :D  Yellowhammer needs to buy one and report back ;D ;D

Darrel

So I received the literature on the WM4000 this week and I just got off the phone with Woodmaster and got some answers to some questions.

I will recommend this product with some reservations. You also must understand where I am coming from. I have 17 years experience operating 4, 5 and 6 headed moulders and planers, including Weinig, Mattson, Yates American, Newman and others.  I will admit that I'm spoiled.

Pros:
Woodmaster makes a great product here in the USA
The capacity of this machine is great. 4"x17" for moulding
The heads are arranged in the correct order ( bottom, right, left, top)
Feed speed respectable for a small machine

Cons
No vertical adjustment in side heads for doing such things as aligning T&G.  Relies on shims and knife placement in heads.  (A set of shims come standard with machine.)

Minimum width of moulding is 1¾"  What if I want to make ¾" cove moulding?

That being said, if you don't mind the setups on T&G where side head alignment is critical, being a bit fiddley and don't need to make small moulding, this sounds to me like a great machine.

And one more thing, 230 volt single phase requires 70 amps plus what ever dust extraction would be.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

WLC

Darrel, thanks for your write up.  I also emailed for the written material and received it last week.  I'm totally out of my element on machines like these as I have never seen one, much less run one.  The thing that stood out to me was the 70 amp requirement on the electric.  Is it just because they have higher horsepower motors than say the Logosol, which is 50 amp?  Still trying to decide if for my use (right now no production work, just personal use) that one of these 4 head machines is worth the money to me over just a standard machine like the woodmaster planer/molder.
Woodmizer LT28
Branson 4wd tractor
Stihl chainsaws
Elbow grease.

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