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job site clean up

Started by Robert R, November 06, 2005, 11:09:27 PM

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Robert R

How clean is considered clean.  Where I cut pallet logs, the landowner wants everything left where it falls (which is really nice for me) because his teenage son cuts up the tops and sells it as firewood.  I leave everything under 10 inches for him.  He does all the brush stacking after he gleans what he wants.  His dad won't let him fell trees.  But on my walnut jobs, getting the saw logs is the smallest part of the process.  If the owner wants firewood, I cut everything up to their length and stack in the immediate area for them to come get or else if they don't want it, I pack it all out for me to burn.  Then I stack all the brush either where they indicate the want to burn or I just get it out of the way and stack very tightly as out of sight as possible.  What it amounts to is I easily spend 3 times as much time cleaning than getting out the good stuff.  I get recommendations from everyone because a woodlot usually looks better after I am gone than before I start.  The reason I am whining about all this, though, is because it takes so much time the hourly return gets awfully small.  I am not interested in just leaving all the tops where they lie but am trying to find the balance in time spent cleaning without overkill and essentially devaluing my labor.  It may well turn out that "extra spotless job site" is my niche but I would like to hear from some others about how much they pick up after themselves.

What spawned all this was a neighborhood cut by some of the "big boys".  They basically took what they wanted and left everything where it lay.  It looked horrible.  And they left a lot of saleable timber behind by basically only taking the walnut butts.  I went in, cleaned up the mess for my neighbors and put some additional cash in his pocket from all the 0.55 to 0.80 cent logs they left behind.  Hopefully, I'll get his next cutting first as well as any neighbors he tells. 

So where do you all fall on the spectrum from anal retentive clean to no pick up at all and why?  What are the pros and cons--for all I know, it is better for the tops to be left.  I just don't like the way it looks.
chaplain robert
little farm/BIG GOD

beenthere

Robert R
I think you should get paid for what you do, and you are the only one who can 'control' that when you bid or contract for the job. The 'big boys' are in there to make money, I suspect. You should be there to make money too, or else just chalk up the extra work as 'charitable'.
I don't think anyone should expect to get something done by you for nothing.

You might have to adjust your dislike for the way it looks.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Gary_C

There is a big difference between "better after I am gone" and "leaving all the tops where they lay." Most of my jobs are state jobs and they usually specify how the tops are to left. Most require no slash piles over three feet high. With hardwoods, that usually requires knocking the limbs off the larger tops. I have an advantage because the smaller trees and pulp are cut with a harvester and the tops are driven over and flattened. The larger sawlog trees are hand cut and then I just cut all the tops to 8 foot lengths and pick them up along with the sawlogs. The crooked and knotty stick just go in the firewood pile.

It is surprising how good these sites look if you just cut the tops down so they lay flat. Plus the tops make good fertilizer for the soil. Some of the loggers that have joined together in associations have started piling all the slash and having a chipper come in to chip the tops. It does pay, but not alot of money. The state is now considering charging them for the tops as it removes nutrients from the site.

Most of the state foresters watch more for condition of the landings and roads than the stump height and height of slash. Even though most private landowners are more concerned about immediate appearance, they will like when you keep the roads and landings in excellent shape. Leave no trash behind.

The worst thing you can do is push the tops into a pile full of dirt. 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

There is concern in my kneck of the woods because it looks bad. But no one is 'tidying up' the brush. It stays where it falls. Most sites that are clearcut are well rotted down by the time it's pre-commercially thinned. On selection sites I've walked, the slash is in the trails all compressed down. The worst jobs I see is on crown land where they used delimbers roadside. That basically takes good growing ground out of production for a long time as nothing can grow up through that slash. The piles can be 2 meters thick and 10 meters wide. Take 2 km of roads with slash on each side and that is 4 ha (10 acres) of forest production lost until that brush is either rotted, burned by a lightning strike or someone's cigarette. In which case you've just lost your plantation and several ha of natural woods...poof in smoke. It's a pain in the back side when you have to walk around those slash piles when marking out thinning. I'de rather be walking roadside. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

hosslog

Here in Pa. we have a problem with to many deer.So by leaving the brush where it falls you have created an area that they can't browse in so the regeneration has a better chance of getting established.

Woodhog

I am presently on a site cutting  mostly Spruce logs..

We limb up to about the last  4-5 feet, then cut this piece in two...

Anything between 2- 3.5 inches we bring out as firewood, the logs go down to
3.5 inches minimum small end.

I then try to run over any brush that is humped up to help the decay process.

I seen increasing interest in "Biomass" with big machines to bundle this stuff up..

In the long term they will probably see that this was a mistake....

Max sawdust

I keep the landing real clean.  I take anything 100 inches down to 2.5 inches out of the woods and brush to less than 1 foot.  I try to drop tree's into dips and valleys so the view from highspots do not even look logged.  My specialty is smaller private ownership woodlots, where people ski and hike so apperance is important.
Max
Still have not figgured out how to get paid right though. ::)
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Frickman

Hosslog hit the nail on the head. Here in Pennsylvania, the only way to protect the young growth is to leave the tops to protect it. Ron W. has stated in other threads that most of the nutrients are in "fines", twigs, leaves, and small branches. Cleaning up and burning this slash will deplete the soil of nutrients needed for the next crop of trees.

Today I drove by a regenerative clearcut I did about ten years ago. The four and five foot high slash I left is all decomposed now, and there is a nice stand of fifteen high and better saplings growing. This includes alot of red oak and cherry, two species that the deer browse hard. If I would have "cleaned up" the slash the landowner would only have black birch and red maple, two lower value species in this area.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

SwampDonkey

Up here it's the moose. When they hold up in a hardwood site for a while they ruin it. Strip the bark and break down the tops to get the tips.  >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Coon

I have seen the same things happen up here in eastcentral Saskatchewan.  The big game animals browse the tender tips of new growth trees.  It is very common to see the animals also grazing on the mosses of evergreens tops and the buds off of the tender tips of white birch tree tops following a logging operation....
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Max sawdust

You all need some of our wolves from Minnesota and Wisconsin. ;D 

That will keep those deer in check :D

True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

SwampDonkey

White tails aren't that thick here, I see 20 hunters for the two doe deer I seen all year. :D But, I see moose every week. They only hunt them 3 days a year. One to three moose behind the house often times, 6 moose have been seen on my woodlot- five bulls chasing down a cow, seen 2 nearby in a field the other day. Woodlot trail is tramped by moose like a cow path.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Max sawdust

Swamp Donkey,
Yum Yum Moose is better than deer and the best part is you get more good stuff to eat for each bullet :D
I spent quite a bit of time in Finland and moose is on the menue often especially up in da lapland.
Anyway,
Ya I understand your over population with the moose they manage whitetail in the USA like it looks like they manage moose in Canada. 
max
(Every thread needs to turn to food at some point  :D)
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Scott

A lot depends upon the ecosystem and the landowner's management objectives as to how clean the logger leaves the timber harvest. Some of the objectives as previously mentioned such as landowner fuelwood availablilty, protecting regeneration from deer browse, putting nutrients back in to the soil, type of harvest, species being harvested, etc. need to be determined in advance of harvest.

Aesthetics is usually a primary concern on most timber harvests and the activities as to how the slash and woody debris is to be handled should be well spelled out in the timber sale prospectus and in the timber sale contract.

Then bid accordingly based on your costs to handle the specific slash and woody debris conditions required by the landowner.
~Ron

Stephen

I recently read a 'rule of thumb' where brush less than 2"dia., less than 2' from the gound will rot within 2 years.
Sounds reasonable to me ???
1994 WoodMizer LT40G18. 69 acres mixed wood. 1952 ford tractor, Norse 290 winch, studed Norse ice chains. 45-66DT Fiat.

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