Buying vs Sawing

[mab]

Hello,

I have been lurking for a while now.  I enjoy reading about the work the
members of this forum do.  I do not yet have a mill (on the list for someday...).
There are parts of the milling process I think I understand and parts I don't.
One of the things I'm unclear on is the economics of it all.

I hope to retire from my current job in the next couple of years.  At that time
I'd like to build a shop.  I have been thinking about what it would cost for
various building materials - metal, block, wood.  For me now, the most likely
choice is to just go to one of the big box stores and buy the needed lumber. 

But what if I had other options?  For instance if I had land with trees?
Or if I knew someone with logs?  Or if I just went to a sawmill and bought
framing lumber.

Never having done it, or been around it, I have no idea what the above options
would cost.

I'd appreciate any advice I could get.

Thanks,
Mike

[ohwc]

Not trying to rain on your day.... The easiest route and most likely the cheapest if you have land with trees is to hire a sawyer to cut and dry the lumber. Weather you want to haul them or have them come out is a matter of how much work you want to do in saving $. And also how much support equipment you have. Buying a mill is only part of the equation. Probably like most in here a lot of people think its easy as they watch. Its just sawing logs till they actually have a conversation with you on it. Its like most things out there that is hard work, you are doing multiple things at once. If its a dream and you have always wanted to do it though go for it. You only live once.

[Joe Hillmann]

Probably the cheapest way to build a shop is a pole barn with the poles on footings.  You cut the cut the 6x6 poles yourself as well as the larger framing lumber for the rafters and headers.  Then buy all the 2x4's.  It is the larger lumber that you really come out ahead by sawing your own.  The cost of 2x4's at lumber yards is so close to the cost of producing them that it may be hard to justify milling your own.

It will be interesting to see what advice more experienced people than me have to offer.

[Finn1903]

agree with previous post, have a mobile sawyer come in and mill.  You will have a chance to see first hand the process.  Think about milling some more, the scale you want to mill at.  Then build your shop, with the air dried lumber, then if you have the desire to mill pick up a used manual mill on a skid (LT15). 
If you work in reverse of what I wrote out above, you can get wrapped up in running the mill really fast and before you know it 2 years have passed and no shop and your running around milling all sorts of lumber.

[mab]

 No rain here 
I'm not attached to any particular method.  If I every do any milling, it would likely be after building the shop.  Right now, I'm just wanting to understand what's cheaper, and if there is any difference in quality between what I can buy at Lowes vs what I can get locally.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Magicman]

Hello Mike, and even though you have been lurking for a while, this is our first opportunity to say Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

I am sure that your questions and concerns have entered many minds and are prime items for discussion.  Those same questions come to me frequently from customers.  My answer is that it depends.

Selling trees/logs is an option but only if you have enough for the logger to move equipment and still make a profit.  Will your logs produce the required cut list to satisfy your needs?  For example, you can not saw 2X12's from 12" logs.  Do you have the necessary felling ability and skidding equipment to stage the logs for a portable sawyer?

Last year I sawed enough framing lumber to build a home from trees that were felled from the home site.

Another item is grading.  Many cities/counties require graded (SPIB#2) lumber for framing.  Some do not.  Be sure that your builder, insurance, as well as any financing institution are all in agreement.  Many times this can be handled with the architectural drawing specifying "#2 and/or rough sawn lumber".

Much of the framing lumber that I saw for customers is from "beetle killed" SYP meaning that the trees had no commercial value and were being salvaged from being termite food.

As far as the lumber quality, good logs make good lumber.  I have seen framing lumber at lumber yards that I would not scale and charge the customer to saw.

[mab]

Joe,

I agree that is probably the cheapest way to approach this.  The main goal is a shop.  Milling on my own is just something I'd like to try, most likely a hobby.

MagicMan,

Thanks for the welcome!  I appreciate that there is no simple answer to this open ended question.  Any information/advice I get is appreciated.

Please keep the advice coming!

Thanks again,
Mike

[Warped]

Joe is right, the larger the dimension the more the savings. My local mill charges the same, if not more for comparable 2X4's at Home Chepot, yet 6-8" T&G he blows them out of the water in price and quality. He also pays the sales tax if bought with cash.

Seems there is some confusion here, you do not own land now is the way I understood it.

One good thing is it sounds as if you have minimal framing experience, therefore won't have to deal with framing with nominal sizes for years then transitioning to actual size.

[mab]

Sorry for any confusion.  I'm sure I could have framed the question better ;)

I do not own land at this time.  I hope to within the next couple of years.

Actually, I did a fair amount of framing in the 70s, but very little since then.

Thanks,
Mike

[Verticaltrx]

Last I checked most all dimensional lumber at Lowes/Home Depot was around $1.00/bf, that adds up quick for a building of any size.

Here's my situation and thinking:

I already owned all the support equipment I needed (we farm and have a construction business), have access to all the trees I need (family farm land), and have lots of things I want to build around the farm. As such, the lumber does not need to be graded and rough sawn is fine.

I purchased a small bandsaw mill, in fact about the smallest you can get, a Hud-son HFE-21. It cost $2800 new and will saw logs up to 21" dia. In just 6 days I sawed enough lumber to equal the cost of the mill, everything after that is pure savings/profit. The little Hud-son is a fine mill for my purposes, others might want something bigger and more user friendly. Regardless, if you keep the cost of your mill in the $5000-6000 or less range you should get a pretty quick return on your investment. Used is a good option as well.

We are getting ready to build a 24x32 hay feeding shed for our cows and the only cost will be the tin for the roof and the nails/fasteners. Everything else will come off the mill. Total cost for the building should be around $1.00/sf, pretty darn cheap...

[longtime lurker]

Sawmillers run the gamut from hobbyists, through those earning a few dollars on the side, to full time professionals. The economics of it changes depending on where you sit on that scale.

If it's only a hobby look at the economics this way. How much would it cost you to buy whatever lumber you need? If you can buy a mill for the same amount (more or less) and you value your time as worth nothing (because after all its a hobby) - the economics aren't so bad. Pick up a few paying jobs every so often on top of that and its a bonus because now you;re getting paid to do something you enjoy. By definition you should enjoy your hobbies right? Quickest way to find out if you might like that is go offside for a sawmiller for awhile for free - he gets free labour, you get experience, and you get used to the idea that you're going to do that much work for nothing because you like what it is you're doing. If you dislike it then you know to buy lumber/hire in a contract miller etc etc.

Next step up from there is the guys who mill part time to supplement other income. Depending on your access to logs and the species you have, and how much demand for sawmilling there is where you are - it can be a profitable little sideline at best and at worst it's a revenue neutral way of spending time when you weren't otherwise gainfully employed. Basicly this is taking our hobby and expecting it to pay for itself without actually needing it to pay for itself on a weekly basis.

Sawing for a living is a different kettle of fish. We're now running a business and if you don't make money then you don't eat. Somewhere out there there's probably a business where you can make good money without hard work and with no risk but no-one I know of knows what it is, and if you do please send me a PM. :D As a way to make a living i'd also suggest that this one is harder then most. You spend your life either running a sawmill, repairing a sawmill, sourcing logs for a sawmill, chasing up business for a sawmill, or doing the paperwork assosiated with any commercial venture. Competition is tough from both foreign and domestic sources, margins are small, and the capital outlays to upgrade to compete are never ending. You either find a niche or sink, and the reality is that most guys sink. It takes a certain type of lunatic to take a hobby and turn it into a viable concern.

Course thats just my opinion, and I'd suggest you take it with a grain of salt because I'm a lunatic. :D :D :D

[Ljohnsaw]

<snip>
Somewhere out there there's probably a business where you can make good money without hard work and with no risk but no-one I know of knows what it is, and if you do please send me a PM. :D
<snip>

At the end of my career (27 years in IT), I had one of those jobs - but I wasn't happy doing it :-\.  So I quit.  My retirement pension is a wee bit less then what I was making so I have to pinch pennies a little - but now I'm happy 8).

I spend my time building my mill so I can build my cabin - that makes me very happy ;D!

[Ron Wenrich]

In our area, the box stores are carrying dimension stock for $0.55-60/bf.  When I ran a mill, I couldn't compete with the box stores for dimension stock.  There stock is very uniform, and I can pick through it and get the better stuff.  If I saw material, I'll have product that I have to throw out.  I'll also have the time factor of letting things dry.  We never tried to compete with box stores for dimension stock.  Also, if you need treated material, the box store is the place.

Any local mill can saw the heavier stock that's needed.  That's where we could produce custom material for special projects.  We could compete and beat the box store.  It's not their niche.

You can saw your own, but you'll have to go through a learning curve.  Cost effective?  I've seen the banter of $0.35 thrown around as a sawing cost.  You have to throw something of value in for the logs unless you can get them for free.  Not much room there between store bought and mill sawn. 

[red oaks lumber]

we own saws, kilns, planers, and when i do a building project i go to the lumber yard i can't compete. some times your best tool is your checkbook

[Verticaltrx]

Surly I'm not the only one who finds sawing their own lumber profitable?  ???

I figure it takes me about 2hrs total to get 100bf of lumber from the standing tree into a stack of boards. At Lowes right now a 2x4x8 (which is actually only 3.5bf after planing) is $3.31 so that equals $0.95/bf. That equals $95 in savings for every 2hrs work I do, or $47.50/hr. Even if we take out $10-15/hr for expenses like fuel, blades, depreciation, etc that's still a pretty good wage.

Lastly, lest we forget, a dollar saved is more like $1.25 to $1.50 earned...

[drobertson]

Everyone pretty much has summed this up,  so I will add my 2 cents,  I believe and have said before to customers that it depends on what is being built, and from where the raw materials are coming from.  Around here, a structure can be built cheaper using a landowners timber, providing its of the desired species, and having it sawn custom.  The over cut produces a great return for the owners timber, plus a good income for the sawyer.  Now timeliness of the project is of another animal, as is the finish requirements.  So for a upper end living dwelling, time will be required, and if time is available it still would be cheaper than buying out right. It's been proven, if a build has to be done within time constraints, say 6 months?  well then as mentioned get out the check book.  Good planning is the key for just about everything when we talk about saving money.   

[Joe Hillmann]

Surly I'm not the only one who finds sawing their own lumber profitable?  ???

I figure it takes me about 2hrs total to get 100bf of lumber from the standing tree into a stack of boards. At Lowes right now a 2x4x8 (which is actually only 3.5bf after planing) is $3.31 so that equals $0.95/bf. That equals $95 in savings for every 2hrs work I do, or $47.50/hr. Even if we take out $10-15/hr for expenses like fuel, blades, depreciation, etc that's still a pretty good wage.

Lastly, lest we forget, a dollar saved is more like $1.25 to $1.50 earned...

No where in there were you taking into account the cost of the logs or, if you cut the trees your self, the cost and your time of getting them to your mill.  You also have the wear and tear on your equipment to consider.

If you figure all your time and logs are free and your only costs are, fuel, blades and lube then it can be much cheaper.

I do laser engraving for a living and I built my mill so I would have a consistent product to engrave on.  If I figure my time is worth anything it would be cheaper for me to go to the large mill down the street and and buy the wood I use.

But by milling my own I can get the lumber in the dimensions that work best for me and I can afford to have several thousand board feet of it tied up in half finished projects so that way once I sell it all I have to do is engrave it. In this case I have a sizable time investment up front but once I sell it is when I finally get paid for the milling I did months earlier.  If I was buying my lumber it would be a sizable cash investment up front in wood to be able to do that as well as not necessary having the dimensions I want it in.

So in my case there are benefits to milling my own but it isn't necessarily cheaper to mill my own.

[Verticaltrx]

No where in there were you taking into account the cost of the logs or, if you cut the trees your self, the cost and your time of getting them to your mill.  You also have the wear and tear on your equipment to consider.

If you figure all your time and logs are free and your only costs are, fuel, blades and lube then it can be much cheaper.

I guess you didn't read my other post a few above.

The logs are free, they come off of the family farm. My 2hr per 100bf estimate was 1hr per hundred bf for cutting and hauling, the other hour for milling, stacking, etc. Obviously I cut and haul a lot more than that at a time, and mill more than that at a time, but that's about what it averages out to. Same with my $10-15/hr cost estimate, that includes cutting and hauling. My mill only cost $2800, uses very little fuel and costs almost nothing to run. All of my support equipment is equipment I use around the farm anyways. It is all older and fully depreciated out, it owes me nothing and costs very little to run. 

Every situation is different as mentioned, for me milling my own lumber is very cost effective. If I had a $28000 mill with payments on it, were buying my logs, etc, then it definitely would never pencil out for farm lumber.

[Corley5]

  I've bought lumber at HD and Lowe's because by the time I figured my labor, fuel, time and time away from my income producing enterprises I was farther ahead buying it than logging and sawing it myself.  Doesn't seem right  :( :-\  The larger the project requiring the lumber the more economical sawing my own becomes.

[Ron Wenrich]

If you're cutting logs off your own land, there is still value associated with it.  At a minimum, there is stumpage value for anything you cut.  You're liquidating the asset.  The relative value of your stand goes down by that amount.

When you log it yourself, you have the associated costs with it, just like any other logger.  Your costs may be lower since you might not be carrying insurance, your transportation costs are lower, and you don't have SS to worry about. 

Finished dimension stock sizes also have accounted for shrinkage and planing. 

[mab]

This is what I was hoping to get - several different opinions.
I appreciate all the responses.

Thanks,
Mike

[longtime lurker]

Surly I'm not the only one who finds sawing their own lumber profitable?  ???

I figure it takes me about 2hrs total to get 100bf of lumber from the standing tree into a stack of boards. At Lowes right now a 2x4x8 (which is actually only 3.5bf after planing) is $3.31 so that equals $0.95/bf. That equals $95 in savings for every 2hrs work I do, or $47.50/hr. Even if we take out $10-15/hr for expenses like fuel, blades, depreciation, etc that's still a pretty good wage.

Lastly, lest we forget, a dollar saved is more like $1.25 to $1.50 earned...

It depends how one defines profit. In your case  profit is dollars saved by doing a job yourself instead of buying in a product, similar to saying if you be your own mechanic on your farm and construction equipment then you've not spent money so its a profitable avenue. Can't argue with that line of thought - you're totally correct in how you look at things. You've got a range of equipment capable of making the job possible and a resource that meets your needs. If you had to go buy new machinery other then the mill to do this you might look at it differently, but you didn't have to. If you had to buy in the logs to do it your numbers might change a lot as well. A situation like that is a perfect reason to own a small mill and run it as a "when it suits" sideline.

If I don't make a profit from my sawmill my children starve to death in a darkened, un-airconditioned (on the list of worries I have freezing to death aint one of them) house. I have skidders, dozers, loaders, truck and a forklift solely to keep logs up to the sawmill. I have a range of sawmilling equipment, land and buildings dedicated to the turning of logs into lumber. I have employees, contractors and subcontractors, customers and agents, landholders and government officials to deal with. I need to meet a number of government and/or regulatory standards concerning everything from the harvest of trees to lumber standards beyond point of sale. From where I'm at it'll only take about another quarter of a million dollars to turn this operation into what I want to turn it into, and the operation as it stands has to generate every one of those dollars plus keep a roof over our heads in the meantime. I'm profitable too, just like you are, but the ways we measure profitable are different is all.

Me - I think I'm jealous of you.

[Verticaltrx]

Surly I'm not the only one who finds sawing their own lumber profitable?  ???

I figure it takes me about 2hrs total to get 100bf of lumber from the standing tree into a stack of boards. At Lowes right now a 2x4x8 (which is actually only 3.5bf after planing) is $3.31 so that equals $0.95/bf. That equals $95 in savings for every 2hrs work I do, or $47.50/hr. Even if we take out $10-15/hr for expenses like fuel, blades, depreciation, etc that's still a pretty good wage.

Lastly, lest we forget, a dollar saved is more like $1.25 to $1.50 earned...

It depends how one defines profit. In your case  profit is dollars saved by doing a job yourself instead of buying in a product, similar to saying if you be your own mechanic on your farm and construction equipment then you've not spent money so its a profitable avenue. Can't argue with that line of thought - you're totally correct in how you look at things. You've got a range of equipment capable of making the job possible and a resource that meets your needs. If you had to go buy new machinery other then the mill to do this you might look at it differently, but you didn't have to. If you had to buy in the logs to do it your numbers might change a lot as well. A situation like that is a perfect reason to own a small mill and run it as a "when it suits" sideline.

If I don't make a profit from my sawmill my children starve to death in a darkened, un-airconditioned (on the list of worries I have freezing to death aint one of them) house. I have skidders, dozers, loaders, truck and a forklift solely to keep logs up to the sawmill. I have a range of sawmilling equipment, land and buildings dedicated to the turning of logs into lumber. I have employees, contractors and subcontractors, customers and agents, landholders and government officials to deal with. I need to meet a number of government and/or regulatory standards concerning everything from the harvest of trees to lumber standards beyond point of sale. From where I'm at it'll only take about another quarter of a million dollars to turn this operation into what I want to turn it into, and the operation as it stands has to generate every one of those dollars plus keep a roof over our heads in the meantime. I'm profitable too, just like you are, but the ways we measure profitable are different is all.

Me - I think I'm jealous of you.

, well thank you, I'm sure you have plenty of equipment that I would sure like to have. One thing I've learned in farming, and I guess any business, is that the easiest way to make money is to have almost no expenses. Everything I do is on a cash basis, no debt, no employees, only get the minimum equipment I need, and I don't buy stuff at the end of the year just to 'write it off'. Also if a piece of equipment fits my needs I basically keep it forever, it can be rebuilt, overhauled, etc many times before you reach the cost of a new model.

As for the milling, you are completely right, I do it as an as needed basis on the side. I'm beginning to do a lot more however, I'm using more and more of my own lumber for things I'm building for my customers. It's nice to build something and take home both the amount for labor and materials as profit.


I guess what everyone should take away from this thread is you really need to put the pencil and paper together for your particular situation. I think if someone owns some land or can get free trees and has even a small tractor for log handling, running your own (inexpensive) sawmill can pay off quickly. For others maybe not.

[beenthere]

The title of this thread could be "Buying vs Gardening" and some of the same discussion could take place.

I use to garden, and I liked it... working the ground, planting the seeds, weeding, and eating the produce... but the one step I didn't enjoy and that was picking/digging beans, tomatoes, beets, cukes, etc. prolly because it "had to be done at a certain time".

Now, the store or market is the place to buy what is desired at the moment. No garden. I don't have to plan months in advance what I am going to be eating... some similar to sawing my own trees.

Now I enjoy logging so I log to make firewood. I go to the good local lumberyard (not a box store) to buy good lumber when I want to build something.  Works good for me.

[thecfarm]

There is nothing like having a sawmill to saw your own logs on.  ;D  Oh what a feeling.