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Firewood seasonoing. Red oak

Started by Kwill, January 24, 2018, 02:35:29 PM

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mike_belben

Ive heard it all, and defied it all without issue.  Conventional wisdom can actually be a wives tale sometime.  

Ive burned wet hardwood, wet pine, pure waste vegetable oil, WVO and sawdust in manufactured stoves, modified stoves and home made stoves of conventional and rocket configuration.  10 years and never did a brush touch my chimney.   Meanwhile my buddy who is "following the rules" brushes 2x per season and has black tar DRIPPING off the riser elbow onto the floor.  Yeah, looks great.  

You want creasote?  Damper that stove down to a 300 stack and youll have all you want, just like my buddy.

I routinely ran my stack up to dull orange with sparks coming out the roof to keep it clean. No chimney fires, no house fires.  Occasionally need to open a window.  
Praise The Lord

Tin Horse

I agree with Mike. My Caddy wood furnace requires a standard  barometric damper by code. My furnace is EPA rated. Problem was that stack temp was low. Furnace has lots of outside make up air. Creosote dripped from the pipes. Closed off the damper years ago and it runs clean. I also burn a lot of red oak. Barely seasoned a year. I check the stove and pipes but it requires nothing in the chimney. There are a lot of variables with wood burning and it's often the user with the problem.
Bell 1000 Wood Processor. Enercraft 30HTL, Case 580SL. Kioti 7320.

mike_belben

I chalk it up to a cold flue being the root of all evil.  


Makeup air is probably a close 2nd.  
Praise The Lord

John Mc

Quote from: mike_belben on April 06, 2018, 10:10:11 AM
I chalk it up to a cold flue being the root of all evil.  


Makeup air is probably a close 2nd.  
Agreed. However, burning unseasoned wood and smothering the fire by choking off the combustion are are two of the biggest culprits in causing a cold flue. That doesn't mean you can't get a hot fire with green wood. You just have to work at it a bit more than with seasoned wood.  I will say that you are wasting BTUs burning green wood: as much as 40% of the BTUs in the wood. You can't get around the fact that you have to heat up all that water, and even more significant, vaporize that water (driving water from liquid to gas takes a LOT of energy). Further, a cold smoldery fire - whatever is causing it - wastes BTUs because some of those gases which are the products of wood combustion will not ignite at lower temperatures, you are just letting them go up your flue, or leaving them to condense as creosote on your flue. A catalytic stove or boiler helps with this, if you first get it up to temperature to ignite those gases. Once ignited, the catalyst will help keep them burning at somewhat lower temperatures.

I'll be the first to admit that maximizing BTUs per load of wood is not always someone's primary objective. Sometimes it's minimizing labor involved in dealing with firewood, or minimizing the time it takes from cutting to burning the wood, or getting a stove to burn through the night without reloading.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mike_belben

I dont disagree with you at all.  Ive just never had a sane or stable enough life for wood burning details to ever make front page.  

Stoves lit.  On to the next problem. 
Praise The Lord

New sawyer

I burn in an owb . I split in the spring  to burn in the winter . I burn what ever the tree guys drop off in the yard and some wood I cut from my own lot . I store my wood in a 40' shipping container and there is always condensation on the ceiling . I cut pine logs into cookies 6' long and don't split them . It's a lot less work , and the dry quicker. I love oak but it takes along time to season properly . The problem is time . Working 50 hrs a week and maintaining my land ,house and equipment leaves less time for firewood . 
Life is what you make of it. You own your own decisions.

eamassey

Firewood seasoning is hardly even in my vocabulary.  I've lived with wood as my primary heat source for at least 65 of my seventy-two years.  I have three wood stoves --  all Ashleys. My primary stove was bought new by me in 1977.  That is about 40 years service.  I burn mostly standing dead trees the first part of the winter until I run out-- then green wood.  Sometimes I burn wood the day it was cut. I never did own a chimney brush--but I do check the pipe out two or three times per winter-- nothing to be done, except, at the first (fall) inspection I always have to knock down a few dirt dobber nests.   I do always clean the aluminum rain cap, as it is simple stamped aluminum and plates out with black (dry) deposit.  I burn mostly oaks, some hickory-- never any softwoods.

My flue pipe is "Metalbestos" brand double wall pipe in 30" sections, 1977 vintage, so it is most likely real asbestos.  To me in my location--that is, not as cold as many of you see, control and long-burn are more important than ultimate heat generation.  In fact, if I had all standing dead wood, I would go out and cut some green wood for added control and burn time.  My night time procedure is to burn hot for about 30 minutes before bedtime, rake down, and load full with wood-to include a big round one that will just go in the door.  The house is always warm in the morning and I just rake the ashes out of the coals and it is a roaring fire in a few minutes.  

A note on emissions-yours may be better than mine.  It is not very critical in my case, with low population density and we own everything around us for a good distance. 

doctorb

I, too, have a moisture meter, but I rarely use it anymore.  My advice is to find some space, either outside or in a shed, or both, and prep 2 year's supply of wood.  After the first year, you will have to prep only one year's supply each year, staying one full year ahead. Each year's fuel thereafter will have, dependent upon when during the year you put the wood up, two full spring-summer-fall seasons (and one winter) to dry.  So I try and have all my wood prep done by April 1 of each spring.  This has worked well for me.  I burn 80% oak, with a bunch of it being red oak.  MC on most of what I burn is 17-18%.

I stack half under cover in the shed with the OWB and half outside exposed to the elements.  When the weather is nice, I use the outside stacks.  When it's yucky, I stay nice and dry and use the shed wood.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

John Mc

Doctorb -

Are you drying your Red Oak through two summers, or one? If it's one, I suspect  your drying season in MD is a whole lot longer than ours in VT. I've just not had luck getting Red Oak to dry here if it's only gone through one summer as cut split and stacked wood.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

doctorb

Sorry.  I must not have detailed that too well, John.

I put up 90% oak this spring that will be used in November 2019.  So my wood will dry all this summer, as well as all the next summer.  You and I agree that one summer is not enough to season green red oak.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

John Mc

Quote from: doctorb on June 07, 2018, 12:49:44 PM
Sorry.  I must not have detailed that too well, John.

I put up 90% oak this spring that will be used in November 2019.  So my wood will dry all this summer, as well as all the next summer.  You and I agree that one summer is not enough to season green red oak.
In rereading your post, there is no lack of clarity there. The shortcoming was in my own addled brain.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

olcowhand

We cut and split mostly Beech, Maple and Ash, with a little Ironwood and occasional Cherry.
We're fortunate this year to say all our wood for this winter is put up, and working on Fall '19. Usually we're cutting deadfalls and blow downs in February and March- with only an indoor Furnace for heat. I shut off the Propane furnace when my girls learned that it was easier to turn up the thermostat than stoke the fire (10 years ago, and the furnace hasn't come on since).
Most of our wood is stacked on pallets, with a tarp on the top, leaving the sides open to the prevailing westerly wind. Most years, our wood doesn't get much more than a couple months to dry. We clean the pipe 2-3 times a winter.
Not the best use of this valuable resource, but it suffices....
Good thread; Let's keep it going. Some of your good advice might "Soak in" (old saying...). 
Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

John Mc

Ash is probably one of the best to burn if you don't have time for it to fully season. It starts off with one of the lowest moisture contents of any of the "prime" hardwoods. Beech is probably second on that list (though it makes an even better firewood when it's fully seasoned).

Wood is our primary heat source. We heat 2000+ sq ft with a single woods stove, burning fully seasoned wood. We clean our flue once a year, whether it needs it or not. In a "bad" year, we'll get a little over a quart of crap out of our 20' flue when we clean it.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

olcowhand

"Ash wood wet or ash wood dry, a King can warm his stockings by..." (Old saying).
I normally would not be cutting ash, but they're all dead. I liked having them in the woods, as they seem to be magnets for the elusive Morel (a mushroom much sought after here).
Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

uplander

Quote from: John Mc on June 06, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Doctorb -

Are you drying your Red Oak through two summers, or one? If it's one, I suspect  your drying season in MD is a whole lot longer than ours in VT. I've just not had luck getting Red Oak to dry here if it's only gone through one summer as cut split and stacked wood.
This. There is no way I can get away with burning any oak drying during only one summer. It will creosote my flue like you cannot believe if I try it. Generally I let my oak season three full years before I burn it. It took many years for me to get there but I am finally there.  I have had much better luck with faster drying times with beech and even hickory.
Woodmizer lt40G28.  A kubota L4600 with loader and forks.
Various Stihl saws and not enough time to use them!
Finished my house finally. Completely sawn out on by band mill. It took me 7 years but was worth it. Hardest thing I have ever done.

Tom Caroselli

I have a tree service business and red oak is a big portion of our daily removals. I also heat my home with wood. Both ways will work for you, but the wood in the shed if it doesn't get the wind might take a little longer to dry. Buy yourself a moisture letter, and keep a log book.

doctorb

Tom-  Welcome to the Forum!

We agree and I think it's time for a little experiment.

I am cutting and splitting a red oak (I assume.  I'll also get pics of the wood.  It's not a tree that I have ID'ed closely before.) that blew over in a storm about 3 months ago.  It was a healthy live tree.  I will take one of the 18 inch rounds and split it into 6 triangular shaped pieces.  Each will have a radius of bark attached.  I will mark the bark so I don't lose track.

I'll measure the MC after splitting, which should be very high.  (I have read here that MC is inaccurate on most meters when it's extremely high.)  I'll report that here.  I'll place a couple of the pieces on top of my outside wood stacks (fully exposed to wind / sun / rain) that will not be used for at least 18 months from now, providing 2 summers, 2 falls, 1 winter and 1 spring of seasoning.  I'll place the others inside the shed, one within one of this year's "green" stacks and another on top of the same stack.  I'll take pics to give you guys some idea of the different environments for these pieces.

Hopefully I'll write this stuff down, not turn senile, and let the wood season until December 2019.  Then I'll split the pieces and measure the MC.   We will get some idea how much the shed experience effects the MC.  I would tend to agree with your assumption regarding seasoning inside of the shed.

It's a long time to have a reminder string tied around a finger....
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

hedgerow

We load and stack wood off the splitter on dump trailers and I store the trailers in metal pole sheds that get very hot in the summer. Usually we load the trailers in the spring or summer and burn the wood late in the winter or the next fall it always seems to be dry when I burn it. 

doctorb

All who are interested....I have started the experiment on firewood seasoning.  I took the liberty to post pics of the firewood involved in the Tree, Plant, and Wood I.D section, to verify the species of tree that I will be testing.  

Please verify species in Tree, Plant and Wood I.D.

Once confirmed, I will detail the experiment and provide pics here.  I am not trying to confuse people by posting in two different threads, but I believe that the folks interested in tree ID are not necessarily the same folks interested in firewood seasoning.  And I wanted a confirmed answer as to the tree species before continuing the experiment.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

cutterboy

doctor, that is an interesting experiment you've started. Hopefully we will all live to see the results.
   I looked at the pictures of the wood and believe it is a red oak. There are a few varieties of red oak, black oak being one of them. I think they all dry and burn about the same.

 
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

doctorb

Here's my set-up.  A three-sided shed with one small window, and different cribs to hold firewood.

 



 

I split a single round into 6 pieces and sprayed some paint on the bark to help me remember where they are located.  MC = 26%



 


I placed 3 pieces outside and 3 inside the shed.  2 of the outside pieces will sit on top of an existing woodstack, with full exposure to sun and wind and rain/snow.  Like this:



 

The other outside piece is buried in the stack



 



I did the same thing inside the shed, with two pieces on top of a stack, and one buried inside the stack.  No sunlight will reach these logs.

 I will wait 18 months, which is how long (minimum) I let wood season.  We will see if there is any measurable difference in the MC of these 4 different positions of the logs.  Somebody remind me in December 2019!
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

KEC

Red Oak (and some other species), when cut in the spring, if the outside of the log is relatively defect-free, and you score the bark lengthwise with a chainsaw, can be de-barked with an axe. Yes, this can be a bit labor-intensive, but bark-free wood dries faster and burns better and fewer bugs. Anyone else do this ?

TKehl

Wow Doc B!  I am in awe!   :o
 
I knew my setup was kind of redneck, have seen some nicer setups, and have thought about adding a carport around my outdoor burner.  However, looking at your setup, the only comparison that comes to mind comes from a podcast I've been listening to about Genghis Kahn and his descendants attacking Europe in the early middle ages.  "Not only were they better than the European armies, but they brought tactics and technology that the Europeans didn't even know existed.  It's like they came down from a higher plane."
 
We burn standing dead and deadfall almost exclusively as we have more of that than we can keep up with.  No sense cutting live trees other than in fencelines.  As such there is a lot of wood that goes straight from our trailers to the woodstove.  I felt real good about myself when I had last winters wood cut and stacked by mid October, covered with used tin laid on top and weighted down.  ;D
 
KEC:  As for debarking, I find if you leave a dead tree standing two-three years, the bark comes off easily and often on it's own.   :D
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

doctorb

TKehl-

Thanks, but it's not that amazing.  This shed was an old 3-stall "barn".  The previous owner added a real barn to it, making it unused space.  I just removed a few of the stall partitions, changed the roofline a bit, and....there you go.  It's an old structure whose life expectancy was "extended".  I do like being protected from the rain / snow when I visit on cold winter evenings.  And I appreciate not having to knock snow and ice off the fuel just to be able to extract it from the stacks and throw into the stove.

My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

olcowhand

Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

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