My B-30 aka (TK B-20) 11 years of heavy logs finally was about to fail.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170319_205658.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1489982235)
The tube has worn through and has a twist in it.
Time to reinforce and straighten
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170319_210056.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1489982476)
Cut out the worn area that chain wore through and added some 3/4" plate
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170319_210445_809.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1489982714)
After getting original tube straight we added 3/8" x 4" plate to sides and new sprocket shafts and grease bushings. And Now we have a industrial chain Turner once again
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170319_211308_463.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1489983207)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170319_211422_824.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1489983282)
I had to do the same thing a few years back, looks good.. After breaking the original no 60 chain too many times, I bought 10' of 60H chain for around $30 then welded U shaped pieces of metal every 5th link. The 60h runs for years without any troubles plus I got 2 chains out of that 10'. Steve
Nice job on that turner. I've got a claw turner that I've built but there are times when I'm working alone and need that third hand hold the log. I'm starting to collect parts for a chain turner and your pictures have helped a lot.
Chain turners work great and should be easy to build.. Steve
Feel free to give me ur shipping address, I will you send u mine. (Lol). I'm due for second rebuild. Good job..
The drive sprocket end is like putting a puzzle together. I never like puzzles >:(
Quote from: ladylake on March 20, 2017, 11:00:29 AM
Chain turners work great and should be easy to build.. Steve
The curve part of a can't hook on the end of a cable works real good
for that.
Nice job redbeard!
I think we need to start a chain turner subject. One with pictures of turners, from being built to installed, with everything in between
Great rebuild! Pics are a great resource! Good idea on the chain turner page Clover.
I'm in the early stages of designing and building my two. I am thinking of running a common 1.5" shaft to turn the bottom sprockets and serve as the pivot point for both chain turners, driven by one high torque hyd. motor (direct driven from one of the ends of the common 8' shaft). There would be independent hyd. cylinders to raise and lower each arm separately. I plan to run #80 chain with #80 SK-1 Attachment Connecting Links installed every 5 to 6 links, with welded solid stock bridging the uprights.
Is there any reason the above setup wouldn't work well? Maybe someone is already building a similar set up.
Floridamike #80 chain is pretty heavy duty stuff. What about 60 or 60H? Am I understanding your post that the turners would be 8' apart? What would the requirement for that be?
I have a claw turner that can lift a house but sometimes I need an extra hand beside it to turn or hold the log for final positioning. Two turners close together could do the same thing as what I'm looking for. Although both chain would need to be independent of each other.
I'm thinking two turner arms would be better for longer logs. At 8' apart, any point on a 24' log would be within 8' of a turner. The arms would move up or down independently of each other, so one or both could be used as an additional holder/clamp. Only the rotation of the chain's would be siamesed together.
What about Agg chain for hay elevators ?
60h lasts way better than 60. If building one I'd go with the 80 but 60h would work. Steve
Nice job on the rebuild redbeard. Looks good as new.
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 20, 2017, 05:41:52 PM
Quote from: ladylake on March 20, 2017, 11:00:29 AM
Chain turners work great and should be easy to build.. Steve
The curve part of a can't hook on the end of a cable works real good
for that.
After being spoiled be a chain turner, no way. Steve
If I was building one I would use 100 or 120 with lugs welded to every 3rd or 5th link. And I might just do that to replace the joke that woodmizer calls a turner along with the hyd. feed upgrade and 6-10 gpm pump and pony motor, vertical backstops and on and on.
You don't need to be welding lugs on your chain.
There is many different kind of lugs that can be bought
that hook right on the chain. Sample....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/lugs.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490143431)
Kbeitz with that link you would have to use a chain breaker and break the chain every 4 or 5 links and add that in. You can buy the whole chain already made up with those links. But if you went with an 80 or bigger link you could weld right to it and probably a lot cheaper. I was thinking of welding schedule 80 pipe cut about 3/4" thick and cut again into a C shape.
Cost is the biggest factor in going above #80 chain size. You can rebuild a #80 turner 4 or 5 times over for the cost of the #100/120 components. I do think you can weld lugs directly to #80 or larger chain side plates, but I'm guessing solid square lugs will work better than half round pipe lugs.
For my low volume mill, I am going to roll the dice with a #80 chain/sprocket size.
It's interesting to see the original log turner.. TK has redesigned the turner arm to a curved design to better cradle the log. That fix looks like it will last a long time.. nice work. I use a small block of wood w/ the raised chain section to use as a 2nd clamp.. and the whole arm to hold big logs.
Even 60 h holds up real good on those big snarly logs, 80 should work great. I made some U shaped pieces out of 1/8 x 1" metal bent in a press then welded to every 5th link, never had on fail yet and they turn the log good. The links like Kbeitz posted might last a day before they fold over. Steve
Quote from: ladylake on March 21, 2017, 06:01:46 AM
60h lasts way better than 60. If building one I'd go with the 80 but 60h would work. Steve
x2 i would break 60 at least once a week the 60h changed it to once or twice a month but if i was building one from scratch i would use the 80 or maybe 80h the bigger the better :)
redbeard good job on the rebuild smiley_thumbsup one thing you can do to help with wear on the tube is bolt a piece of of 1 1/2" channel to the top of the turner bar as a wear guide and it also helps with the chain pushing off the side of the bar when it hit a odd shaped knot or oversized logs :)
i have to change the wear plate about every 2 months when sawing steady but it saves the bar from ever wearing at all also attach with 2 ch grade 12 1/4" round head screws and its only about 15 min job to replace where if its welded its a pain to replace i will try to get a pic thought i had one in my gallery but did see it this morning :)
Quote from: kensfarm on March 22, 2017, 12:29:58 AM
It's interesting to see the original log turner.. TK has redesigned the turner arm to a curved design to better cradle the log.
Anyone have a picture of TK's curved design?
So why no got with agg chain ?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Agg_chain.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490211021)
Quote from: Clover on March 22, 2017, 10:30:27 AM
Anyone have a picture of TK's curved design?
Not a great picture.. the TK1600 can fit 37in between posts.. this white oak log was part of a 5ft diameter monster yard tree.. I was maxing it out and had to trim.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31193/CurvedLogTurner.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490211925)
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 22, 2017, 03:30:30 PM
So why no got with agg chain ?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Agg_chain.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490211021)
That chain would be ripped apart fast. Steve
Having run both the straight turner on my B20 and curved turner on my brothers TK 2000 I still don't know which one I like better. Steve
Quote from: ladylake on March 22, 2017, 05:04:21 PM
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 22, 2017, 03:30:30 PM
So why no got with agg chain ?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Agg_chain.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490211021)
That chain would be ripped apart fast. Steve
i agree with steve that chain is way to light to even consider and the long teeth on it will cause the chain to hump up when ts trying to turn the log even on the little b20 mill the hyd will destroy the turner chain i even quit ordering the links to bolt the teeth the chain and just weld 3/4" keystock to the 60h chain and it is much stronger than the links you buy to put them on the chain :)
Ok.... I'll just keep moving up the line... Trencher chain
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/ditch_witch_chain.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490221178)
http://www.replacementdiggingparts.com/
As I recall, on their newer mills TK uses links like the first one kbeitz posted, only with square chunks of steel bolted between the "flanges" (not sure what to call them).
At first on my B20 TK used the links Kbeitz first pics without any metal between them which folded over fast, then TK added metal blocks screwed between the side tabs which I welded as I didn't trust the screws that held them in place, big improvement but it was still 60 chain which wasn't tough enough and cost way too much so I bought 10' of 60 H chain and welded the U shaped metal pieces every 5th link, I get around 3 years out of that 60h chain now, Sandswamill14 doesn't get as long life but he's only sawing the oversized logs, I mostly saw normal logs with a few oversized ones. I might have to try the 3/4" keystock as that would be easier. Kbietz, what me and Sandsawmill are doing is cheap and works well. The new TK mills have WAY bigger chain on them and wont be having chain problems, I'd guess 100 Steve
Ok here's my turner I'm going to build. 60 drive chain because I have it. 60H turner chain for extra strength with welded U grabbers made out of schedule 80 1" pipe and curved frame to guide chain. 2.5" lift cylinder. Any thoughts gentlemen?
You forgot the hydraulic motor to turn the chain , on my B20 I think its around 900 RPM 2.2 cu in with a 1" shaft geared down with the motor having a couple less teeth than the turner sprocket. On the TK 2000 the motor is way bigger direct drive and both could use a hair more power on the real big ones. Steve
The hydraulic motor I already have is 23.3 ci. With my 13hp power pack it should turn about 50 rpm's. I've never seen one in service but I think that's still way too fast. I was thinking of a three to one reduction on the drive side.
How many rpm's are other chain turners running at?
Steve, do you think lower rpm would be good, along with adding "more power" (torque)? I was thinking 300 rpm would be plenty fast, it just needs to be high torque (as you said for the "real big ones").
FloridaMike 300 rpm's seem pretty fast. Imagine turning a log that speed on your mill, that seems pretty quick.
The higher the cubic inch of the hydraulic motor the higher the torque. Also a disk valve motor will have pretty close to double the torque of a spool valve motor with the same cubic inch size. Hydraulic motors also don't like a lot of side loading on the shaft at higher rpm's and their loading really drops off as they are sped up. It's best to check manufacturers specs to get the right one. One other thing to look for is pressure ratings, most won't go to 3000 psi like a cylinder will.
I don't know what your using to power your hydraulic pump but I originally had a 6.5hp power pack and found it waaay to slow.
I am using a 16hp gas engine (originally purchased for the mill) which will power a 16 GPM hyd. pump and a 12v alternator. I understand the shaft loading restrictions for most hyd. motors, hence my plan to direct drive the log turner chain. I haven't ordered the log turner motor yet, so I'm all ears on what speed is best!
Also I will be asking for guidance on control valves configuration when I get to that stage of the project. The whole open vs. closed centers, power beyond and variable speed options are confusing to me. I plan to diagram the system with blank circles for controls, post it here on FF and see what advice I get.
Thanks!
I looked up the specs on my turner motor
2.8 ci in
969 RPM at 12 gpm. I only run my 6.5hp gas engine at half speed so the turner is only getting 3 to 4 gpm
1800 psi
Keep in mind that if you use a 5" spocket your only turning the chain 15.7" per rpm. I wouldn't want my chain turner speed to be much slower , a little slower would be OK but nice to be able to turn those logs fast. Steve
My claw turner rotates the logs slowly but reliably, with little damage to a cant. There are many times I would like to rotate faster though... especially on opening cuts and such. So I can see where ladylake is coming from with regard to having the speed up there on the chain turner.
Nice job Redbeard I see you are just up the road from me a ways. As a suggestion using some UHMW as a replaceable wear strip would help on wear of both the chain and tube. I have some you can have if you get down my way. UHMW wears about 3 times longer than steel when used in this type application. I machine a fair amount of UHMW so I have some scraps laying around you can have.
Mike
FloridaMike I don't think your going to be able to turn that pump with 16hp. Maybe an 8 gal/hour would work. Well not at a hydraulic cylinders working presure anyways.
A 6.5hp is rated at about 3.5 gal/min at 3500 rpm's and 3000psi. This is gas engine specific. Electric motors would be rated lower hp requirements for same pump.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Calculators/Pump-Disp-HP-GPM-RPM/
Looks like 16 hp will turn a 16gpm pump at 1500 pressure but not much more, I think most relief valves are set somewhere around 1500# but not sure.. For sure not at 3000#. Steve
According to that calculator if I'm getting 3 GPM at 2500 rpm my motor would be turning 248 RPM. Steve
Thanks Gundog! My friend that did all the fab work was wanting to use that product.
There's a TK 2500 not far from me and my buddy is going to help me Fabricate a new or second Two plane clamp. These pics I took awhile back. Need to go back over there and get pics of the turner.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170323_162340_800.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490311456)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170323_162524_438.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490311562)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20170323_162629_770.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490311631) Gundog is this white plastic the product you were talking about?
Quote from: Clover on March 23, 2017, 02:42:52 PM
FloridaMike I don't think your going to be able to turn that pump with 16hp....
The pump is rated at 16 gpm at 3,600 rpm at 3,625 psi, with a 1.08 pump displacement. So I am thinking it will produce incrementally less gpm at a lower rpm at a lower psi? Per the surplus center hydraulics calculator an 1.08 displacement pump turning at 2,250 rpm will yield 10.5 gpm flow rate. So I am hoping for around 10 gpm @ 2,500 psi. If that doesn't work out I will be shopping for either a bigger gas engine or smaller pump.
Again I thank the collective knowledge of the FF! I was thinking I was over powered for my hydraulic power pack... wrong... under powered!
FloridaMike you will be better off matching a pump to your motor. You would be able to use that pump at a lower pressure but then you wouldn't be able to fully utilize a cylinder rated at 3000 psi. You will have plenty of gpm to move cylinders and motor with a 6 to 8 gpm pump.
Baseline your system at 3000 psi and then you add horsepower to increase gpm.
Closed centre spool valves are usually used with variable displacement pumps. Gear pumps are not variable displacement.
Quote from: redbeard on March 23, 2017, 07:28:51 PM
Thanks Gundog! My friend that did all the fab work was wanting to use that product.
There's a TK 2500 not far from me and my buddy is going to help me Fabricate a new or second Two plane clamp. These pics I took awhile back. Need to go back over there and get pics of the turner. Gundog is this white plastic the product you were talking about?
Most likely but white UHMW is not UV stabilized so it maybe another type plastic the UHMW I use is black and good for UV. White UHMW will get hard and brittle after a few years in the sun usually they use white indoors in the food industry.
I noticed when I looked at a WM mill the other day they were using some sort of white plastic and it made me wonder about the UV rating. I make marine products so it all needs to be UV rated and I use black only for that reason. I use white Marine board a type of HDPE that is UV stabilized but it is not as tough as UHMW. Each type plastic has a use.
Mike
Quote from: ladylake on March 22, 2017, 06:51:14 PM
At first on my B20 TK used the links Kbeitz first pics without any metal between them which folded over fast, then TK added metal blocks screwed between the side tabs which I welded as I didn't trust the screws that held them in place, big improvement but it was still 60 chain which wasn't tough enough and cost way too much so I bought 10' of 60 H chain and welded the U shaped metal pieces every 5th link, I get around 3 years out of that 60h chain now, Sandswamill14 doesn't get as long life but he's only sawing the oversized logs, I mostly saw normal logs with a few oversized ones. I might have to try the 3/4" keystock as that would be easier. Kbietz, what me and Sandsawmill are doing is cheap and works well. The new TK mills have WAY bigger chain on them and wont be having chain problems, I'd guess 100 Steve
steve is right about the log size being my problem with the chain you can look at my gallery and see some pics as a rule i dont saw anything under 24" and most are 30"+ :) the biggest i have cut was a 50+" live oak :o but it had to be split and then a heavy slab had to be took off the top with chainsaw to get it through the mill ::) just to give an idea of the weight of logs this size for you guys who dont run into this size timber i broke 3 of the leveling jacks off the first week i had the mill and now i set it up on rr ties and chain the tongue of the mill to the truck hitch at a 90* angle to hold the mill on the blocks or the logs will scoot the mill when they come off the loader arms ::) another problem with turning the large logs is the backstops if you dont put a pipe on them to make them tall enough the log cant get on top of it the log will drive them down like a nail but if you stay under 28-30" it doesnt give much trouble :)
Looks like 16 hp will turn a 16gpm pump at 1500 pressure but not much more, I think most relief valves are set somewhere around 1500# but not sure.. For sure not at 3000#. Steve
Steve that calculator is for electric motors. It states that you must double the HP requirements for gas engines. I'm running 13hp and can stall out the engine at 3000psi and it's only 6 gals/sec.
You could run lower pressures but the cylinders would have to be doubled in size to do the same work.
Your right Clover about that chart being electric HP.. I think the relief valves might be set at 2000# or so on my mill but don't know. At any rate that 6.5 gas motor runs the hydraulics real good. Steve
The relief on my system is set at about 1800-2000 psi... more than enough for log handling.
Quote from: redbeard on March 23, 2017, 07:28:51 PM
There's a TK 2500 not far from me and my buddy is going to help me Fabricate a new or second Two plane clamp.
Six years ago I modified my stock clamp and got rid of that puny 6" cylinder. My clamp has a 12" cylinder and a couple of modifications to make it work better. If your interested I can start a new thread with pictures telling how I built it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/2011_10290017.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1490488166)
That's a nice looking clamp Larry please start a new thread on how you did the mods with pictures. Y'all know we love them pictures