The Forestry Forum

I just recently replaced my sawmill engine with an engine built waay before today's strict fuel/emission standards.  This '97 vintage engine was certainly not designed for today's low sulfur fuels "ULSD" which reportedly lack the lubricity of the old fuels.  With that thought in mind I decided to do some research to decide if and what fuel additive that I might need.  It never gets cold enough here for fuel to gel so that is not even a thought.

Opti-lub seemed to be on top of every study but Stanadyne was always close in the lubricity tests.  Stanadyne was always higher than Amsoil, Power Source, Howe's, & Lucas.

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I didn't find any Opti-Lube so Sandadyne it was.  It only needs ~¼oz. per gallon and I normally fill my fuel jugs with 4½ gallons of Diesel so to make it simple my jugs will get 1oz.

No, I do not expect to see any difference whatsoever with the engine's performance, but just hope that the unseen will make a difference.  On a side note this is also the same fuel that goes in my old '72 model 1530 John Deere, so maybe it will also be happy.

Lynn, a local "crusty old diesel mechanic" recommends putting a few quarts of non detergent 30 weight oil in a 500 gallon fuel tank to increase the lubricity of the oil.

He has used this on old military equipment, heavy equipment, etc where the injectors started to freeze up on ULSD.  It typically restores the performance.

YMMV.

Scott

So...would you recommend adding some to my old JD 4000 Diesel?
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I buy the two cycle oil mix and put one ounce per gal.  If you are only using 1/4 oz per gal. your additive may be cheaper in the long run. Banjo

Lynn, you won't see any performance difference, but your injection pump will thank you for the lubrication. Personally I use two cycle oil in my older equipment as an additive. It has worked well. 

WVO here. 

I have a 1965 3120 and a 1990  7120 CIH  we use the fuel as it comes from the refinery. They must be adding a lub to it there. Never a problem.

  We use ATF as an additive in all the older tractors on the farm, and the 8.2L powerhouse Detroit in the C70 Truck (if you've ever driven an 8.2 then you know I may have been a bit flowery on their abilities...).  Just add a "bit" when fueling up, as an additive.  It's cheap and around anyways.  It would make WAY too much sense to pour some into the big fuel tank before they drop off a load.  We're not into that much forethought!  ;D

One site that I looked at described doing the "wear scar improvement" test to compare different formulas and concoctions to evaluate their lubricity abilities.  They compared motor oil, ATF, 2 cycle oil, and many of the commercial products.  I chose to use a product that was high on the list for providing engine protection because both of my Diesel engines were manufactured before the advent of the newer ULSD fuel.

As Southside logger said, I will never see the difference, if any.

The diesel forum I'm a member at, always has these 'best lubricant' threads.  The stanadyne is usually near the top, if I recall so was regular ATF, but what were no no's were 2 cycle oils, and also WMO.  I don't think in the states there's any metal in the 2-cycle oil, but apparently many places there are.  So you gotta pay attention to I guess the ingredients, and ratings. 

I figure for the trouble, I'll just use ATF, and the Stanadyne; oh, I also use Magic Mystery Oil; a little in the fuel, and a little in the engine oil.

With the old mechanical diesels, they'll run more, a LOT more fuel alternatives, just like they're more forgiving for running the wrong fuel, but any metals in any additives will cake up on your injectors, and pump. 

@mike_belben (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722), what is WVO and @Runningalucas (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=23004), what is WMO? 

Waste veggie oil and waste motor oil

I would do some serious investigating and research before I put either in my Diesel engine.  Matter of fact I have and would not consider either.  I am not telling or making any suggestions to anyone regarding what they should or should not use, just sharing what my research told me to use.

Good to know ATF is acceptable. I always have some around for the Clark trans, I'm sure the 4-53 won't mind some too.
Top off the transmission and the fuel tank :D no it doesn't leak that bad.

Just don't put ATF in a truck you are going to drive down the road.  DOT don't take kindly to red fuel.  Banjo

I been brewing and running wvo since 2009.  My dodge 12v had about 40k of pure wvo miles in a two tank heated system i built.. No real problems.   I blend in my stock fuel system on the international now.  Dt466 with 10mm bosch mw pump.

Most issues come from people who dont know how to filter and dewater, then want to run thru late model electronic diesels.  Old bosch pumps are pretty happy on it.  Golden rule is keep it away from copper and brass.  Even mild steel will polymerize plant oils tho much slower.  There are definitely a lot of wrong ways to run wvo actually.

Ive never done wmo.  

My research said:

Can I use ATF (automatic transmission fluid) as a lubricant in my fuel?
Since October 1993, some diesel end-users have tried adding automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to diesel fuel to improve the fuel's lubricity. According to the U.S. Army's quarterly fuel and lubricant bulletin (March 1994), laboratory testing using the Ball-on-cylinder lubricity evaluation (BOCLE) had shown that the addition of ATF to a low sulfur fuel does not improve the fuel's lubricity rating. Moreover, the presence of ATF in fuel can adversely affect other performance properties of diesel fuel.


ATF (AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID)
"It is not a good practice and likely will cause far more problems than it could solve. Using ATF in this way is something of an "old truckers tale" and has been used on everything from Volkswagens to Class 8 trucks. Another erroneous strategy is to add old or new engine oil for lubricity. The problem with these "additives" is they are specifically designed to resist high temperatures and burning. As a result, if they are added to diesel fuel they leave behind ash, heavy metals, and other deposits that can easily cause costly damage to fuel injectors and other sensitive engine components."

Quote from: Banjo picker on August 25, 2018, 09:59:17 PM
Just don't put ATF in a truck you are going to drive down the road.  DOT don't take kindly to red fuel.  Banjo

That is true but your chances of getting tanks dipped in a passenger truck is extremely small or id be in trouble.  Even class 8 trucks dont get dipped very often unless in a level 1 inspection which isnt terribly common.

If there are any filling stations around you that sell biodiesel in the B20-B99 range I would give it a try.  There is a station on I-80 in Missouri that sells B-99 and my truck has never run as good as it does on that stuff.  Reduced engine noise, improved fuel mileage, I am sold on that stuff.  Around here we have E-85 garbage at the pump but no bio-diesel that I am aware of.   

WMO, needs to be centrifuged to get the heavy metals, and particulates out.  I know a lot of guys swear by ATF for getting gummed up injectors, and other mechanical injection parts freed up; I've personally done this.  You can go read any mechanical injected diesel forum page, and the ATF is usually the first thing to get into a diesel engine that's sat for a long time; take the fuel filter off, fill it, crank the engine a little, and let it sit for 24 hours.

I'm thinking the 'don't use it, and it won't make a difference' is on the newer electronic/common rail engines.  These engines cost bookoo bucks when there's anything in the new low sulfur diesels; not a good thing for gas to be pumped into them.

The ball scar test I read had better results for biodiesel than any other additive, so it's great for lubricity. Our diesel in MN is all blended at least 5% bio, I don't worry about adding anything else at all except anti-gel additives in the winter. From what I understand, ULSD has lubricant reblended into it at the refinery. If they didn't, it would take the pump out of any diesel, whether new or old. I think all the concern about it is much ado about nothing, or even worse, folks get so concerned about a non existent problem that they create a real one by dumping junk in the fuel tank that doesn't belong there. My 02😊

Lots of quoting of empirical studies  and OMTs (old mechanics tales) on this thread
I use a commercial treatment only on the late fall and early spring as I dont saw in the winter.
Dont know the brand.

Yes barbender, I read some of the same thing last night.  Biodiesel is always at the top of the list, and I also read that early on with the ULSD there was a lubricity problem but now the  proper lube is being added at the refinery or wherever to protect today's engines.

So my concerns were for naught and once again the knowledge level of the FF surpasses hype.  Now I have a $33 jug of Stanadyne that I guess that I will go ahead and use and chalk it up to lesson learned.  :P

Magicman - just asking - but when you say todays engines are protected, does that include the older technology like most are speaking of?  My understanding is that the metal in those older pumps and injectors is not as hard as the late model ones, thus the issues with wear given the lack of lubrication.   

Call your favorite pump shop and ask them their opinions, they measure plungers and barrels all day long instead of just googling for the answer.  I use wvo as a REPLACEMENT for fuel, not a conditioner.  Ive had no trouble on any fuel yet. 

Wives tales sell a lot of product.  

Mike, I understood about your biodiesel fuel, but there are also biodiesel additives which are what I was addressing and they are always on the top of the studies. 

Sadly most of the articles & studies are written and done by manufacturers peddling additives.

Southside, your question is what started me looking to begin with because the only Diesel engines that I have are older vintage.

I went back and read again and it said "high pressure common rail engines".  "The fuel refiners had to scramble to provide solutions for consumers (diesel fuel users are the consumers in this case). This is where diesel lubricity additives come in. The newly created need in the marketplace forced refineries and fuel suppliers to use more lubricity additives to ensure these ultra low sulfur diesel fuels didn't destroy engines."

I also read that it is not the actual sulfur that was providing the lubricity, but the process of removing the sulfur also reduced the lubricity.  Kind of a collateral kill.

Anyway I have older engines and it will not harm them nor break me to add the Stanadyne to the fuel.

  

Magic, one other property of biodiesel, as I understand it, is that it can a cleaning effect on your fuel system. That cuts both ways, it can help keep the system clean, but if you start running it on an older fuel system it can break lots of stuff loose and plug a lot of filters. We saw that up here the first year it was mandated to be blended in our fuel. We got the first cold day, and there were trucks on the side of the road everywhere! Between it plugging filters and gelling the fuel, it caused a ton of problems, to the point that the state had to do an emergency rescinding of the mandate for our winter fuels for a few years. Now we've all caught up with it, and we're running that 5-10% blend (mandated) year round without issue.

Engine oil standards also changed in the last several years for diesel engines, partially in response to the reduced sulfur in the fuel.

That's right, the new spec is for 5w-30, I can't remember, is it CK-4 now? The 5-30 is not backwards compatible in a lot of older engines. I was running a 2009 Ponsse forwarder with a 6 cylinder Mercedes and about 14,000 hours. Ponsse switched over to the new oil, I was sure my engine would start burning it but no problems. Sometimes have to add 1/2 to 1 gallon when approaching the 500 hour oil change, no different than the 5w-40 we were running previously.

Just to clear up a few points..  Straight 100% Waste veggie oil in a two tank system is what i ran in the dodge.  Start in diesel, get up to temp, switch over to grease when its 160F or hotter.  Stop on diesel to flush lines out.  

I have also blended wvo into stock diesel fuel tanks.  Copper senders are the devil.  


"Biodiesel" is a wvo base stock that has had the glycerin (hippie soap) removed by a cracking process that uses methanol and lye (sounds green right) to remove the glycerin and reduce the viscosity to a sprayable viscosity.  Afterward the brewer washes the methanol out of the broth.  If this isnt done thoroughly youll have a lot of alcohol remaining in your fuel and that swells and eats rubber.  Its a solvent.  


Cold plugging is generally gonna be a consequence of plant oils having a lower cloud point then petroleum.  


Sidenote of the day.  There are umpteen million dollars of grants for all the clean fuel initiatives you can dream up, and theyre all a scam.  Get caught running one tank of untaxed wvo and youre in big trouble.  Yet i have tried paying the tax via the dept of revenue in THREE states now.  Nope, we cant do that sorry. 

The green wealth transfer scheme at work. 

Quote from: mike_belben on August 26, 2018, 01:17:24 PM
Call your favorite pump shop and ask them their opinions, they measure plungers and barrels all day long instead of just googling for the answer.  I use wvo as a REPLACEMENT for fuel, not a conditioner.  Ive had no trouble on any fuel yet.

Wives tales sell a lot of product.  

Mel from Conestoga Diesel in PA, sells performance pumps for the older 7.3 idi, and I believe powerstroke; at least last I checked, his opinion was that the newer fuels do require supplemental additives.  If memory recalls correctly, he recommends the stanadyne additive. 

Quote from: barbender on August 26, 2018, 05:32:36 PM
Magic, one other property of biodiesel, as I understand it, is that it can a cleaning effect on your fuel system. That cuts both ways, it can help keep the system clean, but if you start running it on an older fuel system it can break lots of stuff loose and plug a lot of filters. We saw that up here the first year it was mandated to be blended in our fuel. We got the first cold day, and there were trucks on the side of the road everywhere! Between it plugging filters and gelling the fuel, it caused a ton of problems, to the point that the state had to do an emergency rescinding of the mandate for our winter fuels for a few years. Now we've all caught up with it, and we're running that 5-10% blend (mandated) year round without issue.

The good part about what your saying is it was plugging filters. Therefore it wasn't plugging injectors or causing performance robbing abrasive deposits. In my area of the country we start preparing for low quality fuel issues and cold weather around November 1st. Switching to a higher quality winter blend and diesel additives helps assure we never have that problem.

I have many diesels,from the early 70's to the early 2000's. All run straight pump low sulfur fuel in the summer,and get dosed with Howes beginning this time of year until March or April. The colder the forecast ,the more Howes they get. So far,I have had no pump or injector problems