iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Pricing small diameter logs.

Started by DR_Buck, April 12, 2005, 08:07:54 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DR_Buck

How do you price small diameter logs?   

I do most of my jobs based on bf milled.   If a job is mostly small logs I price by the hour.   But my preference is to charge by the board foot.  That way the customer can see that he is only paying for the good lumber at the end of the job. 

The real question is what about those jobs where you get a 50 / 50 mix of stuff 12" and larger and 8" to 10" stuff?   By mixed I mean in the same pile of logs and not separated.  I lose a lot of production and $$ when I run into this combination.  To much time is lost handling logs and the initial making of the cant before boards start coming off the mill.   Would it be  fair to charge a higher bf rate when you have mixed sizes?   Its to hard to separate the smaller stuff and count it separately without forcing the customer to make 2 or more stacks of lumber and then charge different amounts depending on which logs went into which stacks.
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

Part_Timer

We charge and extra fee per board foot for anything under 10".  I just measure them when they go on the milland I'm clamping them down.  We make two piles of finished boards.  1 pile from the larger logs and one from the small logs.  That way it is all kept straight at the end of the day
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

Tony

   I'm glad someone else has this problem.
My first public milling job, I was cutting 8' logs and getting 1x4s and up to maybe uh.............. 10" wide. The customer wanted all the 1x's he could get out of each log. That was quite a learning experience!!!!!
                  Have got to get that contract typed up. :D :D

                                   wanting to learn :P :P
                                        Tony
TK1600, John Deere 4600 W\frontendloader, Woodmaster718 planer\moulder, Stihl MS461 Stihl 036 & 021 & Echo CS-370
"You cannot invade the mainland United States.  There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."  Adm. Isoroku Yamamotto ( Japanese

Tom

I have an opinion on this.  :D

If you are going to charge different prices for different sized logs  then you need to visit the site and let the log owner know what he's facing before you accept the job or show up with the mill.  It puts him in a bad spot too if he is expecting one Price and it changes on the day that you are to mill the wood.  Especially if he's been waiting for you to show up.


There is a term I learned one time that had to do with haggling. You either do or don't "Leave a dime on the table.".  Someone who doesn't leave a dime on the table is a shrewd and prudent businessman when it comes to finances.  The flip side of the coin is that he might not get called back.  The fellow that leaves a dime on the table may do so at his own risk of success but he has left himself some "marketing" room.

There are some things that are the "cost of doing business".  Being able to saw different sized logs and sawing from either the butt or top end (even though you have a preference) and moving a log or two that is out of place or trimming a couple of logs out of the job goes with the cost of doing business.  You are doing the customer a "service" and if he has shown some compliance with your rules, then you are better off to grin and bear it.

If someone has a pile of 5 inch logs and wants all 1x4's then it's time to sharpen a pencil.  It must be done well ahead of the time of the job.  You must leave him with time to make a decision as to whether he wants you or someone else to saw his logs.  Or if he wants to saw them at all.

Most days everything isn't going to go your way.  There will be good days and bad days, good jobs and bad jobs, days where you make a mint and days when you wonder if you will make fuel.  It mostly boils down to reputation.  If you are in the business for the long haul then you don't nickel and dime your customers.  You do a lot of smiling and back patting and accepting the profits you can glean.  The one thing you have in your favor, if your customer is obstinate and deliberately tries to take advantage of you is not coming back.  You can spend that first job educating your customer so that things Will be right next time.  Make sure there is a "next time".

Most customers don't intentionally make your life miserable.  They just don't know.. 

Now that's just an opinion, mind you.  I live in a society were most of my customer are Farmers, loggers, land-owners and just your average good folks.  They will try to please if they know the rules but don't make them think you are sticking your hand in their pocket every time they turn around.  You will not only not be asked back but they'll tell everybody they know about their experience.  You will soon find just how small a world it is.

Now, I don't live in a city so big that i only see customers one time.  I can't follow that adage that some businessmen follow "stick it to everybody one time and get everybody once."  :D

I know the value of contract whether it be a piece of paper or a handshake.  I also feel that "agreements" should be made well in advance.

Some of you fellows will be surprised what some experience will do for you.  The things that you worry about now, like squaring logs or cutting 1x's or mixing lumber from a single log, or having a customer look over your shoulder will go away and you'll wonder why they ever bothered you.

Somethings are "just the cost of doing business" and the learning curve is one of them. :)

I'm not talking just about the learning curve when you are starting out.  I'm talking about acknowledging that we are all learning, all of the time.

Ohio_Bill

I charge a min of 30 bft per log .

Bill
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

Ironwood

I don't own a production mill. I hire out for services to three or four different sawyers. One guy bring a Norwood manual to my place s he doen't own forklifts or tractor to load the logs. He is very inexpensive and very good guy. He does all my narrow (24" or less) flitch sawing by the hour.  Guy #2 has a stationary WM Lt 15 and is 1 hour from my house, he has a tractor and can saw very well. His hourly price is almost twice the first, he is very good! better logs go to him, as well as quartersawing. Guy#3 Fully hydro Timber Harvester, he is currently sawing a huge pile of pine for siding and roof decking, .20 cents a foot. Jury is still out. He is a part timer and my big logs go slowly as his skills are not well developed yet. Fully hydro also has more blade wander, (I am not real pleased) I am going to try to talk him into using deisel to lube the blade.  Guy #4, A friend we barter his fully manual Hudson 52 is used for all monster logs and bartops.

  There are other millers I use but I guess the point is that you are in this to make money and time is money. You need to educate your potential customers about your usual charges as well as if the logs or  what ever create a difficult situation for you to make money at what you do, including tramp metal or small logs or lack of help (if agreed upon). as well as handling issues, do they have a tractor or forklift? I usually like to pay by the hour as it is most fair, except say for guy #3, he has a mill that is say 4 times more expensive and he can't run it to it's potential. I don't want to subsidize his experience curve. So, if he moved effficiently and showed his profciency I would be will ing to pay him hourly but not for say the next two years. He has over purchased his ability to match mill to skill and I won't be his beast of burdon. Educate your customer and be fair.

  I have had the privilage of now seeing which mill suits my needs and capital and will be very informed when I do purchase.    ;) REID
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Cedarman

I do very little custom sawing of others logs, but I do sell a large amount of cedar to customers.  It didn't take me long to start asking lots of questions so that I knew what the customer actually wanted before I gave him the price.  If they added a new restriction, I changed the price to reflect the new costs.
So, if I were to do custom sawing again, I would have a list of questions that I would ask before I quoted price.  I would have a price list that would take into account small logs, oversize logs, species, metal, milling site etc.  I would suggest ways to keep costs down. Maybe charge by the hour.  If all you are doing is squaring up cants, should the price per foot be the same as sawing all 1x4?  
20 years ago I priced 2x a few cents less than 1x. I could have used the forum back then to help in other aspects of custom sawing.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

oakiemac

I have on my pricing sheet a charge of $5.00/log for logs <12" on small end. I did this because I had one customer with a huge pile of logs no more then 12". I cut all day didn't have much board footage to show for it.
The charge is on the sheet but I don't think I have actually charged a customer yet for it. Most of the time they will have one or two of the smaller. At the end of the day I point out how many small logs they had and then tell them that I'm not going to charge them for that. Most customers really appreciate that.
I still leave it on the sheet in case I come to that pile that is 6' high and nothing but "twigs".
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Brucer

Most of the wood around here is conifer. That means you're pretty much going to get 30 feet of trunk between 6" and 12" along with the "good stuff". In this situation it doesn't seem like good business practice to charge two rates and spend a bunch of time keeping track of two separate piles of lumber. The smaller stuff is always going to be there so my price eflects an average cutting rate.

If I can't look at a job ahead of time, I'll try to get as much information as I can over the 'phone. If it sounds like the job is the usual mix of small and large logs, I'll quote my standard price -- and stick by it. If I get burned, I'll improve my system the next time around.

If a job is big enough that I can't afford to get burned by quoting low, then it's also big enough to make a site visit worth my while.

By taking the small stuff along with the bigger stuff, I'm also giving myself the opportunity and incentive to find new and better ways to deal with small logs. And if I get a pleasant surprise and the customer underestimates the size of his logs, than I can always "leave a dime on the table" and discount the price at the end of the day.

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Timo

Obviously, there is a huge difference between pricing out a job by looking at it, and providing a quote site unseen. It is the later that holds the risk for both parties.

We grapple a lot with this in my 'other' business - tree planting. Most of the time we go out and view the work before pricing. Recent trends are towards larger, more inclusive projects that are dependant on a price matrix to cover variences in the work from project to project and year to year. I've worked on these over and over again, and it is always a balance between a simple system (easy to understand, explain to others, apply to work, and manage while you are working - but often contains cracks where you loose your shirt) and a more complex system, which tends to be safer but harder to manage and complicated for both customer and service provider.

I have been trying to think about how to really understand the different factors in milling to create at least a simple matrix for pricing out work. Even if you don't use it for pricing, and have a simple system that covers the averages and the customer can relate to, in my opinion it is good to have a handle on how the numbers affect your production rate. Maybe it all works out in the wash, but I have a hard time seeing how a basic quote of $.30 per Bf (which most millers in my area charge) can cover the variences that we see in this business.

With this in mind, how do you go about mapping out the factors?
I'd say:
1) Size of job (customer estimates? a few questions to determine their knowlege about what and how much wood they have)
2) average log size/ type, and range of size
3) cut list
4) site logistics - mill set up, sawdust? cants? where do they want the product? am I doing everything or is the customer helping?
5) timing and flexibility of the job - how well it fits my schedule
6) risk - clean logs? likelyhood of metal?

Is an exercise like this over complicating the issue or is it a sensible way to approach each project?
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

woodman

I charge by the hour and the blade don,t care how big or small it,s eather a full day or half a day plus miles.
Jim Cripanuk

Thank You Sponsors!