Any dairy barn pro's on here?

[Grizzly]

My son is planning a dairy barn on a budget, and we've seen quite a few plans for a flat floor parlor including what's called a "California flat floor". Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of any design of that sort? Or any flat floor designs? We've seen quite a few, including 8 stanchions side by side. This to get going in the first 5 years and so we know there are cons to going flat floor but the financial pros are many and allows for a much simpler barn design. Yeah, this forum is of such that a sawmill guy is asking about dairy barns.

Lyle

[GRANITEstateMP]

Grizzly,

My in-laws have a double 6 parlor, but the center is sunken down (where they stand and work).  That barn was built in 1989ish.  The parlor has held up pretty good, most of the metal that the cows rub up against during milking has been replaced in the last 3 or so years, guardrail from bridges was a cheap fix.  Not what you were asking but I can get you pictures of it if you'd like?  Before that barn was built, they worked out of the OLD barn.  It had the tubes running down the center and you went cow to cow and hooked into the tube system.  I don't remember anything about that system, I was young and my now wife still had cooties ;D!

[alan gage]

I don't know anything about dairy barns/farms and the information I heard was second hand so take it as such.

Guy said prices are way down and that the smaller producers (around 500 head and under) are losing money fast. The larger producers are losing money too but not as quickly and they have more money behind them so they can weather the storm. He compared it to us locally 20 years ago when all the local hog producers got pushed out by the large confinements.The large producers have vertically integrated which allows them to compete at a price point that is not sustainable for the small producer. He felt that in a few years small dairy operations will be about done for here.

Probably nothing you haven't already heard but since I just heard it yesterday it was fresh in my mind.

Alan

[A-z farmer]

Grizzly
I have spent most of my life milking cows In our herringbone double 6 with rapid exit and a pit .
I think with all the dairy farms going out of business you should be able to find used miking equipment.
I would contact milking equipment manufacturers to get plans for miking parlors.also check with extension.
We changed from stantion barn to parlor in the late fifties and I know my back and knees would bee a lot worse than they are now with all the bending .
Zeke

[Ianab]

How many cows?

Back in the day we had "Walk though" designs, with individual stalls. But the milker needed to bend down all the time to work. Got old fast as herds got much bigger, miking 20 cows, not so bad. 200 and it's impractical. They did work fine as far as the cows were concerned, just not so much for the milker. 
https://teara.govt.nz/en/diagram/18502/how-a-walk-through-milking-shed-works

Most upgraded to Herringbone, where the milker is in a pit between the 2 rows of cows (10-20 each side), and is able to work at waist height, but still walking up and down the row moving cups from one side to the other. 
https://teara.govt.nz/en/diagram/18504/using-a-herringbone-dairy-shed

Larger farms now often use a rotary platform. Most efficient method, but BIG budget to construct. Sometimes just one operator, that stands in the same place attaching the cups. Everything else is automated.  Worth watching the video if you have never seen one operate. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5fgGf5_0f8

The economics of dairy farming works in NZ because the cows can be pastured all year round, with a bit of hay and silage harvested from the excess summer grass to get them though winter, and possibly a bit of extra supplement food depending on the operation and the season. You can see the cows in the video get a small ration of meal to eat as they are milked. But they will be ~95% grass fed.  

[Southside]

I milk in a double 4 herringbone, there is no way I would keep milking in a flat parlor or stantion barn.  Physically it is brutal, but there are so many other issues when it comes to milk quality, udder health, feet, etc that get neglected when not milking in a pit.  If this is a way to get started then build a smaller parlor rather than one without a pit.  He may not want to milk in 5 years otherwise. 

[Bandmill Bandit]

I milked cows from the time I could pick up the old Surge bucket ot the Delaval pails with a claw, and i was in the barn for chores long before I could do that. 

The barn was a traditional 28 stall 2 row stanchion barn built in 1934 by my Grandpa when dad was 6. The lean-toos were for calves on one side and and horse and calving box stalls on the other side.

Pipeline was installed in 1972. Built a new barn in 1978.

120 free stall with a double 8 Herringbone parlor with 8 weigh jars and 8 milkers. Floor for cows had no steps Pit for the milkers. Woudnt have it any other way.

No feed in the parlor at all. Did TMR for base line and computer feeding for any thing above base line.

I wouldn't want any thing really much different cept may be a bit of automation in ayto take offs but even now youd have to convince me of the real value of them. 
     

[thecfarm]

I went to a Farm Days event and saw one of those rotary platforms.  I think it was in Clinton Maine.

[Grizzly]

Don't take me wrong fellas but we all started with those miserable startups because it's what we could do. My son is young and can survive 5 years of misery just like you'all did and like i did. It means being able to have an at home job with lots of potential down the line. His next plan likely involves a robot milker and in 5 years finances and debts will be in line with that plan. It's just like grandma's being horrified to learn that one of their grandchildren is going back to the land and plans on washing clothes with a scrub board. But grandma did it just fine didn't she?

Anyway back to the dairy plan. It'll be 30 cows at startup with no more than 40 at the 5 year mark. And this is Canada so we don't have pricing issues like most of the rest of the world has. We wisely stuck with a supply management system. (hope that doesn't start any wars on here)

He doesn't want to do all the concrete work of a pit parlor only to take it all out in 5 years to install a robot. Thus the flat floor seems to make more sense at this point with something low cost that can be removed later leaving an easily used space. That's the idea at least.

So pipeline is the most common flat floor that anyone's worked with? Our neighbour just set up a brand new tiestall barn with pipeline and that surprised us. But from his years of experience he says it allows for much better cow health. He's done it in pipeline and in a fancy parlor so i'm thinking he knows what he's talking about but still, that's a commitment to cow care and work.

[Bandmill Bandit]

The sawing job I am on right now is for a dairy farm. He just removed the robot milkers about 2 months ago after 2 years.

Here is his comment re Robot milkers; I have been married to cows since I was a kid. I Have been married to my wife for 30+ years. The robots were more demanding then both of those "wives" put together and they just are not worth the extra work they create.

He said he knows of about 5 dairys that are getting rid of the robots just in the local area.

He has Surge double 8 rear milk parlor with 16 auto take off milkers full electronic integrated system. One operator and its comfortable. Milks 120 ish and says after milking in a rotary in europe for a few years before they moved here he wouldn't want one of those either.

The parlor in its various forms has been around longer than I have and it seems it always ends up being the go to system in the long run. I do know of 2 rotary parlors that have swapped out to the rear milking configuration parlor in the last 5 years too. 

Also said the parlor STILL was used 2 times a day for the 2 years the robots were in the barn for at least 10 to 15 cows so you might as well just finish the job and then you don't have to get up at 1  am etc (all day every day) to restart the stupid computer. He says the time in the barn on milking related/computer issues with robots is at least 3 times what it was milking in the parlor AND that does not include heard management and care.     

A properly designed tie/comfort stall barn is the BEST system IMHO for over all heard health and sanitation.

There are a few Hutterite colonies that have done the tie/comfort stall system AND a parlor and the entire barn is ceramic tile floor to ceiling ACCEPT where the cows walk. It is the best type of barn I have ever visited. BUT not every body can doo hutterite build.      

[Southside]

We wisely stuck with a supply management system. (hope that doesn't start any wars on here)

Griz - I know it's a different system there but since you have the knowledge can you share how it works?  Have you looked into swing parlors?  Still a pit but only half the milkers, line, etc, so a lot cheaper.  I have been working on a portable unit on and off for a couple of years and one day will have it licensed, which here is a massive step - would one of the European portable units work for him?  

[newoodguy78]

Grizzly it's nice to hear of your son getting into milking cows.

I've milked cows in multiple different setups from tiestall barns to pit parlors of various types. Also milked in a "flat parlor" of sorts, all have advantages and disadvantages. As stated a pit parlor is definitely the easiest on the body. I knew a guy that milked in a flat parlor 6 at a time and had a seat between the 3 pairs of cows and it kinda swung back and forth to sit on while prepping and putting on the milker.
Similar to a milking stool but fixed to the framework of the headlocks and swiveled back and forth. He really liked it and saved on his knees.

Southside I believe Canadian dairy producers work on a quota system which you have to buy into. I too am hoping he shares his knowledge of how it works. I've worked on and around dairy farms my whole life and it's sad to see the condition of the American dairy industry.

How many cows do you milk and are you shipping to the conventional wholesale market?

Not trying to hijack grizzlys thread but your mobile project interests me.

[Southside]

We are a pretty small operation, just 22 in milk right now but more coming fresh over the next 6 weeks.  We ship to a private label creamery as we are all grass fed.  I was supposed to milk about 75 and ship into the organic market but the truck route never came together at the last minute so had to make some changes in the plan.  The conventional commodity co-op locally would pick up from us if I doubled the # of cows, but then all I would do it try not to loose too much of my shirt each month so we didn't go there.  

[newoodguy78]

Smart move in my opinion as far staying clear of the conventional market. You'd be lucky if you didn't lose your shirt totally there. Conventional guys around here are losing more than their shirt. You know it's bad when the milk company sends the suicide prevention hotline number along with the milk check. Unreal.

[Bandmill Bandit]

The quota system is pretty simple and works well for the most part. I don't know exact values but will ask my customer and add them later. I think it is well over to $25,000 a cow for quota and then what ever the cows are worth above that. 

There is in reality only one Major buyer in Canada and that is Saputo Foods which is an very large global company based in Italty. There are a few  smaller Labels in Canada but most are controlled by Saputo.

As far as the quota goes your obligation is to produce/ship the amount of milk equal 2 your quota every day. Milk quality dictates price in very small window and right now the top end of that is 58 cents a litre for top grade milk. (if I remember right and I will check) Over shipping is waste of time as the overage was paid quite a bit less when I was milking but again i will check with Beat to be sure. 

When I was milking there was an annual audit review done by the provincial Dairy Control Board of each producers gross shipments and quotas were then adjusted with in the industry. Over shippers could gain quota and under shippers could lose quota. The margins were of loss/gain were not real significant BUT they could add up over the years. Also as market demand for product grew the board would use that audit to distribute new quota on the same production values per producer. 

Not sure if it is still the same re quota control but I will check and post later. it is not real complicated but the quota is the most valuable asset a dairy farmer owns and quite often is worth several times the rest of the required assets including land, buildings and equipment etc one needs to run a successful dairy operation. 

Just got this from beat and it is worse than I thought. Average price for quota per cow in Alberta right now is $36,900 plus the value of the cow of $3000 to $4000, so 100 cow operation is $4,000,000.00 ish Before you buy land, equipment and build the barn. 

AND you can't just buy 10 acres and build a dairy. You have to meet set backs and you have to have enough land to spread the manure and other "organic" waste on. In this county you pretty much need 4 quarters to set up for 100 cows and at $7000 to 8000+ per acre that adds up real fast too. 

Roughly you'd need about $12,500,000.00 to start up BUT you have a guaranteed buyer and a price as long as you maintain the quality and run a clean operation. ADB Inspectors show up unannounced.                       

[Grizzly]

Bandit - thanks for the feedback on robots. We're hearing love it stories and hate it stories but there doesn't seem to be any stories of mild opinions. More to learn before he makes the big move at 5 years. I keep mentioning 5 yrs. It's what the bank wants to hear and what many industry people are suggesting to him to do, is get by for 5 years and then make a real move/barn.

Supply management in it's simplest definition is to measure consumption at the consumer level (fluid milk, cheese, etc) and then provide quota to match that consumption. It prevents overproduction which then leads to the middleguy (dairy processor) to undercut pricing to the farmer and thus the yoyo ride begins. Underproduce and prices go up and farmers buy more cows to get in on the money which then leads to overproduction and lower prices which leads to cows selling and underproduction and we go back to the beginning of the sentence. Some describe that as free and open market while others describe it as unpredictable food providing. Uh.... i think i said more than the definition. Sorry.

Quota, while there have been many attempts at making quota valueless they have not worked and so our quota does have a cost. This cost is what it takes for a stable system and is accepted by the industry.

Southside - are you talking about something like the Europeans are using for their tiestalls where the milker runs around on a track? Or is your portable something different?

I'm not erasing all my hardwork of typing so i'll leave this even though Bandit got his message in while i was reconciling books. I guess i shouldn't get distracted while replying on the forum!!  :D

[Southside]

Bandid - Oh my   yes the income is higher, but still - how does a guy ever get started with those numbers?  Ag lending here, excluding the govt stuff - and I will leave my personal opinion out of that whole mess, is usually  25% - 40% down / equity, if I had the kind of cash you are talking about I don't think I would go borrow money to milk cows!!  

The portable unit is a completely portable parlor, our cows rotationally graze and then hike to the parlor, the idea is that the cows will stay on the pasture and at milking time the parlor will go to them, the cows get milked as they pass from one grazing cell into a new one.  Federal 3A licensing is the hurdle, but we are getting there, I already have a "Gen 2" concept in mind that would incorporate a robot, but I want to spend some time making sure the bugs are completely out of the system before I bring automation into it.   

[Bandmill Bandit]

A dairy family is somewhat of a "royal family" of farming senario. The dairys tend to stay in the family at this point. and may of those families got there base quota in the initial quota draw in the 60s.

When I got out in 1988 that were about 1200 dairys in Alberta but I don't remember cow numbers. Today there are about 600 dairys and about 10% or so more cows with production per cow about 20 % better. 

Those 2 sentences contain all of the pros and cons of the quota system.

The re-vamped NAFTA (un ratified at this point) REALLY pithed off Canadains, both producers and consumers. Most consumers became label readers over night and refuse to buy USA origin dairy products be cause the product quality standards of production and processing don't even make it to the worst case possible in the Canadian system.

Hormones are NOT allowed in dairy at any level and the fines for using them are HUGE. Animal byproducts are not allowed for use in feed for ANY live stock feed products. Anti biotics are highly regulated and the penalty for contaminated milk is debilitating. 

Bottom line our quota system has provided the motivation and capital to create one of the BEST dairy industries producing the best quality dairy products that consumers have come to trust in the world. We do not need to import an inferior product from any where else. 

[Grizzly]

I'm not in favor of milk products crossing borders but, unless i see some real problems, I'll gladly drink milk from any producer in the world. We had friends who believed a cow could produce quality milk from anything but I can assure you that stinkweed for feed does NOT produce a drinkable milk.