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Started by Cedar Eater, May 08, 2002, 10:00:02 PM

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Cedar Eater

I spent yesterday with the forester, taking inventory of my northern red oaks. We reached the magic number of 50 which makes a separate oak specific grade timber sale worthwhile. The average dbh was 22+. :) Most were at least 40'. :) Some were declining. :'(

We left big black oaks and more than a few acorn producing northern reds for the deer and turkeys. The forester pointed out many hundreds of smaller northern reds that will be released by taking out the brutes. When the grade sale is completed, we'll have a separate sale for the aspen and red maple. I learned a lot, but I was a little concerned that we might be high grading just to reach the sale limit, so I went back today and reviewed all the decisions.

We didn't take smaller prime specimens and we did take all the ones that were declining regardless of size. I'm convinced that most if not all were well past economically mature, considering the sandy soil they're groing in. I'm wondering about leaving all the big black oaks, but I guess I can always address that issue after the aspen and maple sale when I see how it looks. If they aren't valuable for grade lumber, then maybe firewood is in their future. I'm comfortable now, but I'm still going to ask one of my neighbors (a retired forester) for a cursory opinion.

Cedar Eater

Ron Scott

Who are your foresters??

Do you want only your high value grade red oak cut now to decrease your future stand value? Will you be able to sell the aspen, red maple, and black oak later in another sale with all the grade removed now?

I prefer to enter the land "once", removing the "worst first" with a true selection harvest between all the species and diameter classes for species diversity and values. Remove all products at one entry for less impact on the stand.

I haven't seen your stand, but just some thoughts.
~Ron

Cedar Eater

Well, ironically, you recommended the forester (Don K.), but his reasoning makes sense to me. :) I'll do my best to convey his recommendations accurately and if anything sounds questionable, please let me know.

Just so we're clear, I'm not concerned that we're taking too many northern reds. The ones we've selected are ripe for harvest and we are taking the worst of that species. They've been good seed trees that now need to give their offspring some room. Also, I think what we're doing is "fixing" the damage from past practices so that I can have a more productive forest. Despite their size, none of these are veneer quality which tells me that if any veneer quality ever existed here, it was harvested many years ago and these were left behind. I don't think that's the case, because I don't see any old oak stumps, but many of the smaller oaks that will be released show veneer potential. I know that red maples were left during a past aspen harvest and this probably helped with oak propagation by restricting aspen regrowth, but the red maples are now tall and broad and are probably holding back the smaller oaks.

The northern reds are so big (at least one is 32+) that they will require different logging methods and different equipment than most of the local loggers use. We want to maximize the number of qualified bidders, so we have to take this into account. The local mills can't handle these trees either, so trucking becomes an issue.

The loggers who can handle the big oaks wouldn't be interested in the red maple or aspen and the local loggers who would be interested in the aspen wouldn't have the equipment or the markets to maximize the potential of the oaks. Some of them wouldn't even bid if the oaks were included because the land area (about 15 acres) is almost too small to be interesting. They would probably also prefer to leave the red maple again, but that simply has to go. It is now mostly clumpy and only good for pallets or pulp. Jeff B saw the area and I suspect he would agree.

The two sales will probably both be completed within one year, so I think the "enter it once" philosophy is effectively encompassed. Don says this is not unusual in this area for smaller harvests.

That leaves the black oaks, which have low commercial value due to black knots. It now becomes a numbers game. I have maybe 20 large black oaks that seem fairly healthy and produce lots of acorns. I would be happy with only 10, but if we force any into the grade sale, we might decrease the number of bidders due to the long distance they would need to be trucked. If we leave them, they will be excellent wildlife trees until more of the northern reds start to produce acorns. If I want to take one or two out every five years or so, I could probably sell them to a local bandmiller or firewood producer. The advantage would be releasing more small red oaks, but, I would mostly release more small black oaks. The advantage to leaving them would be acorn production for wildlife and the aesthetics of the forest which is viewed daily by many locals who wouldn't want to see all the big trees disappear (and of course, neither would I).

So, we seem to have a complex mix of local economics and small harvest area and other factors that are driving this approach. Does anything sound unreasonable?
Cedar Eater

Ron Scott

Now that I know "the rest of the story", it sounds good. Tell Don K. that I'm still checking on him. He knows the markets in your area and is a certified silviculturalist and a good forester.

Well done.
~Ron

Ron Wenrich

Is the black oak in your area that poor of quality?  We routinely put black oak lumber in with our red oak.  It doesn't cut out the same grade, and is worth less, but isn't worthless.  We probably cut more black oak than red oak.

Our low grade oak species are pin oak and scarlet oak.  Most of the scarlet has been culled out and is more of a rarity.  But, I have seen some that were nicer than the black oak in other sections of the state.  

My only question is about the acorn production.  If you leave the black oak, and they are larger trees, they will produce more acorns than the smaller red oaks you are also leaving.  What is to prevent them from seeding into the areas that are opened up?  Most wildlife don't really care which they eat.

Interesting how your forest industries have become so specialized that they don't bid on jobs that have different species.  This week I have cut red oak, ash, hackberry, hard and soft maple, walnut and cherry.  All have a home.  It is not unusual to have 7-8 different species in any logging job and sizes as large as yours.

The only problems we have is when you try to move pulpwood with sawtimber.  Some loggers don't have pulpwood markets, or don't want to take the time to cut it.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Ron, I did look at the stand, and I would say that the black oak is pretty low grade. But it is big.

 I don't think our mill would be interested even if we were close enough due to the quality factor and our lack of markets right now for the lower grades. There are definitly some good Northern Red Oaks in there that have a great start but need some attention to get em going and keep em going.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tarm

Mr Wenrich, I always find it amazing that anyone can even consider doing forestry without a market for pulp. For my last improvement cutting in my northern hardwood small sawlog stand we cut 330 cds hardwood pulp, 183 cds basswood pulp, 37 cds balsam fir, 15 cds aspen and 16,600 bd ft of sawlogs grade 2 and up. This was off 70 acres. If I did not have a pulp market I don't think this harvest would have been possible. How do you do it?

Cedar Eater

You bring up some good points Ron W.

What Jeff B. called black oak, the forester called pin oak. It didn't look like the pin oak I saw in Virginia and the leaves also look like the Black oak leaves in my tree guide, so I also call them black oaks. Regardless of nomenclature, the trees are clearly low quality due to a large number of dead branches relentlously producing black knots from less than 8' above ground to the top of the tree. Also, they branch and crotch much lower than the northern red oaks and have much smaller acorns. I suppose I should post pictures just for clarity.

Regarding whether the black oaks will fill in the areas I'm opening, the forester said that my oak regeneration was already the best he had ever seen. I have an abundance of oaks of both types plus hybrids in the 1" - 4" dbh range. They're tall and straight, but they look too tall for their diameters. I think new growth from acorns will have a tough time competing once these are released.

Regarding the specialization of the local loggers, I think it has as much to do with low local species diversity as it does the loss of diversity in mills. In hardwoods, we have red oaks (northern, black and hybrid), aspens, red maple and only small amounts of anything else. Many local private woodlands have been stripped of their aspens without clearing the red maples. The results lean toward shade tolerant species in the understory with red maple dominant in the overstory. My big oaks are uncommon around here. I suspect they were volunteers after the virgin pine clearcuts in the late 1800's.

The nearest interstate is over an hour away. The biggest local mill is an L-P mill that eats aspen for pulp to make what is locally called Abitibi board (I think that's MDF). They don't allow much of anything to be mixed with the aspen, so many of the local loggers just feed that mill and their equipment is geared toward aspen pulp. The most marginal loggers will only do aspen for pulp or cedar for fencing because they can't handle the weight of larger diameter 8' sawlogs of aspen or maple. There are some small pallet mills around, so they take many of the aspen and red maple sawlogs. Red maple rarely reaches 18" dbh around here. I suspect that's mainly because the high winds and cold winters punish it. Hard maple is mostly on the sunset side of the state (Lake Michigan is a good climate moderator) and I'm on the sunrise side (colder winters, hotter summers and lower humidity (not much, but enough)).

So my oaks may have to travel more than four hours to the mill and with few oaks of that diameter class in my area, those loggers who have a market for big oaks won't spend enough time here to develop local markets for lower value species.
Cedar Eater

Ron Wenrich

Tarm

Now you've hit a sore spot.

In my area, we have 1 pulp mill, 1 animal bedding mill, 1 biomass co-gen plant, a few particle board plants and a couple of  scragg mills.  There are at least 100 commercial sawmills in the same area.  

The biomass plant only takes a mixture of dust and chips.  The animal bedding plant only takes softwoods and only uses a few loads a day.  The scragg mill only wants straight wood.  So, that leaves the pulp mill to take mill chips and a limited amount of polewood.

Some guys are cutting firewood, But, with low fuel prices, low coal prices, and mild winters, those markets are fairly lean.  Besides, enough little guys are out there marketing firewood for beer money, and the commercials can't compete.

There is a glut of mill chips, since we lost one mill to foreign pulp.  Some go for mulch, some go for paper and particle board.  With such a glut, there is little room for roundwood.

The only ones marking pulpwood are the State and Federal foresters on public lands and a few paper mill foresters.  Curious, that when new low grade markets have been attracted to the state, it has always been in areas close to public lands.  They get the benefit, but the vast majority of private landowners do not.

So, any type of management is only done in sawtimber sizes.  Most foresters (consultants and mill foresters), don't mark anything under 14" dbh.  If they do, they cull it out.  They also mark just about everything over 18".  Management tends to be by diameter limit cutting and selective cutting (high grading and diameter limit).  For this type of work, a consultant will charge 15%, and not write any form of management plan.

The advent of more mechanization in the woods has allowed for more damage to the residual stands.  Tree length logging and grapple skidders mean more compaction, and the destruction of  those small trees you're trying to protect.

This has been sold as proper forest management.  The buzz word is to release the understory.  One paper company marked a stand of cherry to release the beech and hemlock understory.  

There are a handful of foresters doing pretty reasonable work, considering the lack of markets.  But, it is pretty rare for anyone to recommend a landowner do a TSI job and actually do the marking for the work.  There is more money in marking sawtimber.

Landowners are on theri own.  The State has been pushed to the side by the industry.  Many just sell their mature (read marketable) timber and go from there.  Others sit tight and don't do anything until there is something to motivate them (like gypsy moth).  

SFI is just starting to get through to loggers.  But, they have to get around decades and generations of inadequate work.  Many loggers feel that SFI is a club the paper companies use on their suppliers.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Cedar Eater

Here are some pictures of the differences between my northern red oaks and black oaks.

This first one is probably the largest of the northern reds. I'm pretty sure the forester called this one Grade 1. Thats me in the picture, and for perspective, I'm 6'5" tall and around 200 lbs.:



The second is a typical black oak:



This shows the difference between the acorns, with the northern red on the left and the black on the right:



My tree book shows no pin oaks in Michigan and puts me at the northern edge of the black oak range, so I'm pretty sure that I have black oaks and not pin oaks, but I'm also sure that I wouldn't want to haul one of them to a mill and have it get turned away. :o
Cedar Eater

Ron Wenrich

Tree characteristics will vary throughout its range.  Your black oak doesn't look like ours.  But, there is an easy way to id black oak.

Take a pocket knife and drill a small hole into the bark.  The inner bark of black oak is yellow.  It is the only oak with yellow inner bark.  

I see what you mean about your oak being in decline.  I would be suspect of those swelled knots.  

Was your wooded area previously farmed?  I have seen abandoned pastures that have grown into woods.  Your pictures remind of that.  When you do an inventory you find some big wolf trees, usually in poorer condition, that were in a pasture and provided seed for the current forest.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

I would guess not on the pasture. He also has some ancient white pine stumps scattered through the woods that I am almost sure predates everything.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

Yes, the pulpwood mills and small round wood or low grade product sources  if any control good forest management. If there is no market for these products and only the quality sawlogs, the stand lends itself to mis-management.

The "pulpers" also want to tree-length everything thus creating more damage to the stand quality and residuals.Their high speed logging quickly fills their immediate mill needs and inventory. They then shut off the producers who sit with no markets for their pulpwood but still have the payments on their equipment.

Maybe the new National Fire Plan will have some impact for more markets for the smaller and low grade roundwood as that will be the supply.

Yes, there is more money to be made by just harvesting the quality sawlogs and leaving the rest not of sawlog size, but it sure "junks up" a timber stand with a lot of wasted product. This is where the environmentalists take the woods industry to task and a bad name for "logging". We now have to be  real "landscapers".

I manage hardwood stands the way Ron W. and Tarm stated. All are improvement and selection harvests with all merchantable products removed to a 4" top including all species at one entry. If they want the sawlog timber they take all products and species as selectively marked, again the "worst first and everything left "straight with the world".

My 15% commission is less money as their is more cost to the timber producer, but a higher valued stand is left for the future, the landowner and their next land manager.

If they want the wood bad enough, they will take all products or we don't sell the timber, just that simple. Timber is usually the 3rd or 4th resource of importance with the landowners objectives for wildlife, aesthetics, recreation etc. usually of higher priority.

Jeff, can attest to this in some of the work his sawmill company does. They take all the products including pulpwood and firewood along with the sawlogs. Their last job was in a highly residential area with hundreds driving by daily looking at it. This job has now created more work for me with landowners calling wanting their land managed and to look that way.

~Ron

Frank_Pender

And Ron, the costs have got to go up for the land owner, is my feeling.  I too try to leave almost a park like setting  after finishing a job.  It has always made for repeat references and a job or three. ;)
Frank Pender

Cedar Eater

It might depend on what you mean by pasture. It is not unusual to have woodland grazing for cattle in our area and my neighbor told me that cattle grazing did occur here many years ago. Apparently, the land was never specifically cleared for farming, but after the virgin timber was originally removed, this property was part of a ranch. Cattle fed among the unharvested trees and that might explain the lack of middle aged oaks. The pictures I included don't show the large number of trees in the 65-80 year age range.

This brings up an interesting aspect of this sale. We left a few northern reds that were marginally mature enough to be included. They're good specimens, but they represent the only northern reds in the 8"-18"dbh range and they're all nearly 18". Looking out maybe twenty - forty years, there will still be only these same 10-15 northern reds in the mature range and the next time when fifty can be expected is probably at least 60 years away. If it doesn't become profitible to harvest less than fifty, it would make sense for me to just take all the mature northern reds now, because those 10-15 trees will very likely die before the next likely harvest opportunity. I just don't like that idea, because money isn't my only driver for having the trees. They will balance the mature black oaks and serve as seed trees if the aspen/maple harvest disturbs too many young northern reds. With the removal of the red maples, they will become the skyline trees.

One thing that I hope will be in this property's favor is the number of oaks in the 4"-8" dbh range. There are perhaps 150 of these and they will not be included in the second harvest. If the "pulpers" damage these or any of the few American Beechs, they will pay triple damages. :)

Regarding the "take it all or none" approach that Ron Scott uses, I agree that it's desirable, but for small acreages with marginal economics, the situation gets challenging. Since the pulpers can't handle the big oaks, some will refuse to bid because they don't want the hassle. Those who don't "No Bid" the job would probably sub out the oak harvest to the same guys we are trying to attract for the grade sale. They'll want their cut of that. Recognizing that we'll likely have two logging companies in here anyway, I think it makes sense to cut the pulp loggers out of the grade oak profits. I have to believe also that the forester wouldn't go to the expense of two different bid processes unless there was economic benefit. I just have to keep my fingers crossed that we're attracting more bidders this way.
Cedar Eater

Corley5

Talking about different kinds of oak here in the Northern Lower...  I was on the Turtle Lake Club last week doing some pellet surveys and was quite surprised at the difference in the forest over there compared to ours.  I also noticed an odd looking oak tree mixed in with the red oaks.  Now I'm pretty sure they were black oaks.  Never sen them over here.  There were no sugar maples where I was on the place.  Just a little north of there around Hillman there are some nice stands of sugar maple.
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