When did you guys make the jump from saw and cable skidders to all mechanical

[plasticweld]

I was wondering what the tipping point was for some of you guys who made the jump to go mechanical and grapple skidders, currently running 4 cable skidders on landing loader, one truck. It seems like the jump would have to be much bigger than I am at now to justify the switch. At the same time getting older it seems like this would be the way to go. What made you guys pull the trigger

[thecfarm]

The guy that cuts for me went from one cable skidder to a forwarder and a CTL rig,probably more than 10 years ago. That was quite the jump he told me. I think it was the market. Also helped at that time he was cutting alot of paper company land. Now he no longer cuts for the paper company.

[deastman]

It's a very, very expensive jump with a huge learning curve. If you buy all new you'll owe your soul to the finance company and if you buy used equipment you're in for a real education on how to fix mechanical problems. Trying to figure out how to be efficient and keep steady production isn't easy. If you go full tree mechanical every piece depends on the other, and your whole operation is only as good as your oldest machine. If you go cut-to-length there are less pieces but you had better know what your looking at to buy cause things can get real expensive in a hurry, but I guess that can happen either way you go. Used mechanical equipment can have lot's of issues that you dont see until you start workin it. It's a big jump and you're gonna have to invest a lot more time than you probably are now to keep everything running and produce wood. Parts and repairs will be a lot more expensive and breakdowns more frequent. Sometimes finding experienced operators that can produce and know how to take care of the equipment can be difficult. Your cost to produce a cord of wood will go way up. Having said all that, I've done it it all three ways-cable, full tree with feller-bunchers, grapples, delimbers, slashers and chippers, and now c-t-l. I like c-t-l the best, two machines with two operators, low fuel consumption, easier on the ground and a slower pace.

[CCC4]

I figure insurance was the tipping point for a couple mech crews I have cut for. That and a cutting machine can just go so much faster. Thankfully I am in the hills and cut alot of rough ground that cutting machines can't get to...sure is nice though some days to show up and have about 7 or 8 loads waiting to be limbed and topped! The crew I cut for presently has  Hydro Ax but like I said, rough ground keeps that dude parked 90% of the time.

[treeslayer2003]

well, the grapple skidder is a bit easyer on me and I did buy a bell for clearcuts. but I still make a lot more money cutting oversize stuff by hand even if I have to cable it out. it is good to be able to do both. there are no ctl crews here, I don't think the ground would hold them.

[Autocar]

As I got older it was alot nicer to seat in the skidder and grab it with the grapple and take off. I got tired of fighting chockers under logs laying tight on the ground.

[cutter88]

im still fighten with chockers and chainsaws... but yes someday ide like to be mechanical

[thenorthman]

... I like fighting chokers... ??? and hand falling...

You bring up a good point though.  Don't know if grapple skidders are such a good thing around here, Hel line skidings days are numbered.  But I still feel that going all mechanical is a downward spiral of debt, confusion and frustration.  (I'm probably wrong... again...) 

Honestly my next step will most likely lean towards tower/high lead logging, or at least a small yarder that runs well enough to work the steeper private ground around here.

[HiTech]

Wow!! it has to be an expensive jump to go all mechanical. I see the prices of new equipment and it is scary. Used is a lot cheaper but then again is that throwing good money after bad. People get rid of machinery for a reason...normally wore out is one. When people talk in price ranges of $200,000 to $400,000 and more I don't even want to listen. Way out of my league. I have watched some big operations go at it. I can't believe the amounts of wood they move in a day. I couldn't afford the diesel fuel they burn in a day. lol One outfit had a fuel truck right on the site. I believe it was a 10 wheeler with a big tank. How many feet of wood would you have to cut in year to stay afloat? A million or more? I do what I do because I like it not because the bank or loan company is knocking on my door. I suppose if you're young and have business savvy and want a big company then go for it. It's just not for me. lol

[Stephen Alford]

   The variable that I would look long and hard at is  domestic.  The family would have to be onboard big time.  One time you could form a company and it would act as a firewall.  That is no longer the case.  They not only come for it all but come when "they" decide your done. Don't want to be a ney sayer but  have tried to function when interest rates were 18-20%+,  it was not pretty. One other thing is if you go mechanical  got to keep an eye on diet and activity.  You want to be able to enjoy the harvest.   ;D

  In fairness to the banks they were pretty decent here when things started to the bottom. They told a buddy "what the heck would we do with  forestry gear and who would buy it" . They set up a minimum payment schedule and he did weather the storm.  Jumping can be a lot like falling, so you have to get things seaworthy before you headout.

[Ken]

I had considered it for years but the tipping point was probably my body telling me I couldn't continue to do high production conventional logging work any more.  In addition the vast majority of wood that is available for harvest in our area is small diameter wood that is very hard to economically produce with a power saw and cable skidder. 

I could not/would not justify the cost of new or nearly new machines to start with.  Now that I have a 2 1/2 years of learning curve behind me I have been giving more consideration to upgrading over the next year or two.  The wood basket that I have to work with is expected to increase dramatically over the next few years.  Hopefully we don't lose too many mills before then.

[Corley5]

I'd been wanting to do it for a while.  The hardwood pulp trees in thinnings are hard to make any money on cutting by hand.  I was past the point where I wanted to run a chainsaw myself and the costs associated with a hand feller were/are not feasible.  I ran on to a Hitachi 150 with a Risely Slingshot head and got a couple years out of it.  I was hooked.  I got the Fabtek 133 last spring.  The operating learning curve wasn't too bad.  The electronics end of things isn't real pleasant.  I couldn't imagine making a payment on a brand new one.  Now I should upgrade the forwarder.  The old C4 Treefarmer is no match for this harvester.

[BargeMonkey]

 When I saw another local logger "walk" up Hunter Mt Ski Slope in a 425C Timbco, I was sold. I know the dangle heads/ disc saws are faster, but im able to drop, limb and bunch 90% of what I put down with a barsaw. We cut alot of "highgraded" woodlots, mostly low grade and firewood. Lots of great dead stuff, or stuff that everyone else has left. If I cut for 2 hours, I can keep 2 cable skidders hopping and 1 guy limbing 1 slashing. Cant come close hand cutting. Ive looked at a processor, but CTL isnt real big here unless in softwood.

[SwampDonkey]

On crown land they had to go mechanical, the skidder guys were chased out of the woods. Still a few skidders around cutting on private, most of the mechanical end of things on woodlots is a slasher and delimber. Not a lot of fully mechanical operators around here on woodlots. One fellow had to in order to run a chipping operation profitably. But a lot of fellows chipped in the late 80' and 90's and they are extinct. They still chip on crown, mostly because of sawmill closures, and it works because they have not got to chase down the next cutting block. Most hardwood on crown is ground up on site. Spruce logs are left until the end of the operation and hauled.  Makes a big difference if all the ground work is laid out ahead of you. Flakeboard is sure mowing down the hardwood ground. Have to laugh a little though, their machines can't cut 46" hard maple. So they stand. Maybe an eagle will nest in one. :D I did see an eagle one day out on one operation near our thinning. 46" is pretty big when your standing beside it, not so much when your looking in off the road. ;D A lot of the hardwood stands (most of the easy access) have had all the red spruce high graded out of it.

[Northern Timber Harvesting]

I fell and hit my head one day, when I woke up I had 1.5 million dollars of equipment and 2 million of debt.

[ABTS]

That's the way it works NTH . you start out just hauling logs for whom ever the next thing you know they ask you if you want to buy a harvester and blamo your up to your neck in debt .

[CX3]

It sounds to me like you could benefit from a grapple skidder. I will never be without one. I'd quit first

[plasticweld]

I really appreciate all of the input, the cost of making mistakes in this business is so high that it does not make sense to have a wealth of first hand knowledge here and not take advantage of it. I would hope that I can put others hard earned lessons to practical use. After reading the posts and doing some more digging into markets for stability, realizing that now I would need different trucks and more, employees would have to learn new skills, I would have to buy twice the amount of timber I now buy. My gut feeling is that in the end I may have less physical work to do but in the end maybe not have anymore to show for it.. Thanks to all of you for  the time and honesty in your answers...Bob

[Kemper]

I feel the same way about a grapple skidder. I also won't go without a buck saw. If mine broke, I'd go the next day and buy another one, just to valuable to be without one.

It sounds to me like you could benefit from a grapple skidder. I will never be without one. I'd quit first

[lynde37avery]

I just made a jump from a 35 hp gas power crawler with logging winch. to a 90 hp cable skidder. boy was that production bumped up, like night and day. so many more logs in one days work. like 75% more production. it took a bit to invest. 10grand or so. but I  did it. now for mechanical harvesters.... not in my life time. I work mountains and holes off mountains deeper than the ocean. so no feller buncher. but what a dream to run one for a day, thatd be something else for my next life maybe.

[beenthere]

lynde
Is that the skidder in your avatar? Any more pics of your skidder?

[CX3]

I've seen guys run a bucksaw. That is a fine piece of machinery. I wonder if a guy could feed one with a truck mounted picker

[lynde37avery]

yes my franklin 130 axl. good everything on it. got it for cheap money and make my decent living with this piece of equipment. and there is NO PAYMENTS ON ANYTHING I USE.

[lynde37avery]

 

[beenthere]

lynde
That looks like a great piece of equipment.

CX3

I've seen guys run a bucksaw.

Curious what you call a bucksaw. Would you describe it for us (or me)?  thanks