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Foundation ideas for timbered shed

Started by catvet, July 06, 2007, 08:23:29 PM

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catvet

It's amazing the ingenuity that is out there.  Not sure how I would get my forms filled with concrete out through the woods.  Probably weigh more than my little tractor could lift.
Catvet

Northern Vermont

Don P

I've been kinda debating how to tip up a concrete bent  :D

Norwiscutter

Don, you just need a couple more guys thats all.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

submarinesailor

Did you say a "couple" more. :D :D :D  How about 50 more? :o :o :o

Bruce

Dave Shepard

I'm finally getting geared up to build my little shed here for the farm, and I need to put it on some sort of foundation. The shed it is replacing was dropped on the ground almost 25 years ago, and is about to fall in on itself. The shed I'm building is going to be 8'6"x either 10' or 12'. The Sobon shed at Hancock is on a simple stone foundation that is simply sitting at ground level. Is there any reason not to copy this approach? Thanks.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

moonhill

Dave, in my opinion it will work just fine, do the maintenance, a yearly check and with a shim here and there.  I have a number of small buildings here and they are doing well.   I am also under the impression a 2" foam pad under a ground pad at ground level helps with frost heave.  Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

shinnlinger

Dave,

A small shed can also be supported by thick wall 4" pvc pipe augured to below frost line and then filled with sand. Pretty cheap and easy and reasonable sure it will hold up to level and rot.  There is a company that even makes caps to simplify the plastic to wood connection a bit if you like the pvc route.  This has been done before.

I redneck like me might use some old 12" water tanks out back or telephone poles instead of PVC and save a trip to the home center.

I happen to have some telephone poles and a 3 pt auger so I would set them and then cut them level with a chain saw, but if you don't have poles, There was a thread on here recently were some one (logwalker?) was taking coper napthate and drilling angled holes in untreated wood after they were set below grade and topping the holes every few years with more napthate.


Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Alexis

I find the pappy's system pretty interesting because it is simple but looks nice and professional... it got me thinking to a question no one ever managed to answer: when we speak of frost heave of soil, how much heave are we talking about? Is it a few inches, less or more? If it's a lot, it would seem that the window on a cabin that doesn't have foundation under the frost line would crack because of movement. If it's only a little, why are people building expensive foundation for cabin and garage when a simple yearly maintenance and shimming would be enough?

thanks

Alexis

beenthere

Shimming when talking about a sawmill bed is different than shimming for a garage or cabin. But it would depend on how much of a nuisance shimming would amount to, and how often one would want to do it. 

Frost heave depends on the soil (clay is bad) and the % moisture held in the soil. I'm on glacial till and get no frost heave, but 1/4 mile away they are on clay and get about 3-4" of heave. 

Maybe that still isn't an answer ..   ;D ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

moonhill

beenthere, that is a good answer, site dependent.   Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

shinnlinger

That is the question isn't it?

How good to build it?

My father was a big fan of pole buildings made from saplings coated in tar and sided with rough cut lumber....I inherited the place and I think I MIGHT hit some rotted wood at ONE of the sites where he built them.  I don't think they lasted 15 years.

AS I got a bit older I tended to sway to the IF YOUR GUNNA BUILD IT, OVERBUILD IT...WHEN IN DOUBT BUILD IT STOUT and 10 years ago I would have said give give the shed a full concrete basement...It will be your legacy.

But now I am becoming more like my father (GASP) ...well not that bad, but there is a happy medium between slap stick crappola that wont last the decade and stuff your great great grand kids will be using.

Now I sway to making things just good enough so that I wont have to deal with it again.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Raphael

Here I'd go for the simplest dry laid stone foundation I could (ie: the big rocks under the posts approach).
That allows me to call it a temporary structure and "avoid any imperial entanglements".
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Left Coast Chris

For these small sheds (8'-6" x 10' or 12') my idea was to put it on skids so I could move it around.  We have no frost heave so not a problem right?

Well, I ended up building a really nice shed that was 10' x 12' with a 10' wall height and a loft at the 7' height with sissor trusses to allow more room in the loft area. 

I skided it into place on a nice flat area and put stacks stickered boards for drying in the loft then put fire wood in the bottom area. 

As the rain hit and the gophers went to work the skids sank on one corner and the shed twisted which buckled a skylight I put in the side up by the eves.

The weight of the wood on the floor and loft was more than estimated.  The soil bearing capacity was less than estimated.

This summer I ended up jacking the shed up and putting in concrete square footings to properly take the load.  I am up to 12 - 94# bags of ready mix concrete and have probably 6 more to go. 

Its a good idea to calculate your intended load and get enough bearing area to keep the soil bearing pressure below the allowable for your soil in a wet condition. :P :) :)
Home built cantilever head, 24 HP honda mill, Case 580D, MF 135 and one Squirel Dog Jack Russel Mix -- Crickett

Mad Professor

I have a 200 yr old TF barn sitting on a traditional loose field stone foundation.  We jacked the barn up once in the last 50 years to "adjust some stones that have moved.  See if you can find someone that still does this type of work.

ksu_chainsaw

I used to pour LOTS of grain bin foundations.  The concrete was 6" thick in the center, and the outside 12" was 15" thick.  We ran highway mesh through the entire floor with 3 bands of 1/2" rebar around the outside.  Under this pad was at least 6" of fill gravel for drainage.  This thickness sounds like overkill for your shed, but I have not seen any of the foundations move or severely crack- they do have the normal hairline cracks.

Charles

Dave Shepard

Quote from: Mad Professor on August 07, 2008, 07:32:45 PM
I have a 200 yr old TF barn sitting on a traditional loose field stone foundation.  We jacked the barn up once in the last 50 years to "adjust some stones that have moved.  See if you can find someone that still does this type of work.


I think it will probably be me that does the work. :D My boss is looking to get rid of 10,000 yards of marble quarry rubble across the street from me. I think I might know what I'm going to build the foundation out of. ;)


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Jasperfield

As to your comment re the tree roots being close...I'd think twice about leaving trees close to the building.

One of these nights, after all your hard work and expense is over, the wind is going to blow really hard. And every time it does so you are going to wonder if a tree will fall on the building.

Alexis

I had this crazy idea for a foundation:

Why not use mafia blocks? these are the huge concrete block, usually 2X3X4. They are cheap and stackable. They could be laid directly on a gravel pad below frost line and you would get a full basement, even for a small shed or garage.

This must not work for some reason, because if it did, everybody would be using these!

Jim_Rogers

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that they are so large that they would be difficult to transport to the site and set in place.
Many years ago barns and houses used large granite blocks for foundations as it was readily available, then. You see these when you look at old house foundations. And there was a recent post about these large blocks in a thread on the guild site.

If you were to use them, one concern maybe, how would the connect to each other?
Would you lay them in some old fashion lime mortar?

Some people, like building inspectors, might be concerned that these blocks are not connected or fastened to each other as you would in a regular concrete block foundation. And if they aren't fastened to one another there is always a risk of the blocks shifting from outside ground pressure against the wall.

At guild conferences, during slide show presentations, we've see how old barns and other large structures have had their foundations (usually made of large blocks) shift over the years. And have to be completely rebuilt.

Without some type of rebar going from one block to another or some other method to fasten them to each other, I'd be concerned with using them......
But that's just me.....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Alexis

I think the block could be drystacked, they are so heavy and they interlock so I don't think they could shift. I know that plow guy use them to build storage shed for salt.

If you do not trust that, you could use surface bonding cement as a mean to reinforce and to waterproof, you still would be way under the price of a typical foundation and I think it would be a lot sturdier with the 24" thick concrete!

Alexis

moonhill

Do these blocks have keys or T & G to keep them aligned?  Are they the one used by land scape companies to contain mulch and dirt?  They don't sound cheep, what do they cost? 

I am building a rubble trench foundation, loose boulders, smaller as I get to the top, pouring a concrete beam on top.     Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

Alexis

Yes, they have some kind of groove and they lock....

they are 30$ canadian for a 2X3X4 block of solid concrete and yes it is exactly the type they use to contain mulch

underdog

If you have to get below the frost line? and want minimal disturbance.
I would use piers. A post hole digger on your tractor. Drill down to required depth insert Sona tubes then fill with concrete.
You can move concrete in a front end loader or rent one of those self powered wheelbarrows.

moonhill

The soil type would determine if you could use sona tubes.  With well drained soils and frost conditions you would be fine, but with loamy soils or clay the tubes will still heave and move all over the place.  Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

Dave Shepard

Anyone use the tapered plastic tubes? They come in a variety of heights. I've put them in for decks before. They have a fairy large foot print going up to about a 10" top. You set them and back fill them, and then mark them with a laser and cut them to height. Calculations are molded into the side for concrete volume. I wonder if the taper will prevent heaving? I've put them in some soggy clay type soil, and I haven't gotten any complaints. ::)


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

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