iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

In Need of Knowledge on Circle Mill.....

Started by tractormanNwv, March 22, 2010, 12:22:45 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tractormanNwv

Hello Everyone,

    Hello Everyone,                                                                                                                                                                     I"ve been Working on a Mill that I only have Heard about as a Boy/child, I have been Totally Fastinated with trying to Piece it together and Bring it back to Life..(It"s been stored/dissasembled for nearly 50 yrs) It is an American Sawmill with 2 5/16 dia Mandrel shaft, 28in dia Flatbelt Pulley, and I have a 52in blade with changable Teeth. The Carraige was not to be Found so I had to adapt the Carraige and all from My Frick Mill...Which I have"nt had Time to Setup.., But I have about got it ready to Try out for the First Time. Can You all Give Me any Ideas as to what RPM would be good to run with My Blade? and what Horse Power I would need? The Book I Bought on Ebay on American Sawmills, copyright 1923, said a #1 and a #2 American Mill could be Run with up to 20hp Flywheel Engine, but all I have is a about 32-34hp on the flatbelt of My Case Tractor, or a 3-71 Detroit which would be Difficult to move around for Me.....See I also Want to Take this mill (Husk Frame & center way timbers/carraige is trailer mounted) to the Local Antique Tractor & Engine Show which I'm the Founder/President of and Share it with the Public, so a Tractor would be easier for Me to move around for now, I'm Going to Try and Figure out this Picture thing so I can Share Pics with Everyone. I Truly Appreciate any Advice Ya"ll can Give Me as to what I Need to do first, My Show is the Weekend of August 14th so I still have Plenty Time to Make Everything Right.

   Thanks in Advance
       Jim

coastlogger

Sounds like a great project.Im sure you will get good answers from people with intimate knowledge of circle mills here. One thing I know is youll need to tell us how many teeth are on the blade. The more teeth the more power required, and of course the faster the cut.There is a rule of thumb/formula for this but I dont have it handy.A concern too is will the mandrel size handle the power indicated. My guess is that in 1923, a 20 hp mill running 52" had very few teeth and cut quite slow. If you have a modern blade? it will likely have a lot of teeth and soak up a lot of power, requiring an appropriate mandrel size.
No answers sorry but a few things to keep in mind.
Looking forward to seeing pics,posting is really not that difficult. I "saved" member 'Planman1954' s one paragraph instruction from his Dec 14 2009 post and followed it .Worked perfectly.Thats how I got past the pic posting confusion. thanks Planman.
clgr
clgr

tractormanNwv

Thanks Coastlogger,

   I did Forget to Inform Everyone that the Blade has 54 Teeth, and is 52 inches in Dia.

  Jim

Ron Wenrich

Rule of thumb is 5 hp per inch of wood you want to cut.  A 52 inch blade would cut a max of 20-21 inches.  That's optimum.  You can go with less hp, but I don't think your saw will work as well.  We're running 50 hp on our edger.  But, you're not looking for optimum.  You're looking for display.

The saws going to need to be hammered to the rpm that you'll be running.  Those old handmills ran about 520 rpm.  A sawdoc could direct you to what rpm you can run and your hp given a set of parameters. 

If you want to use the mill for cutting an occasional log at a display, then you might be able to get away with the lower hp.  You can think about cutting small pine logs with a maximum diameter of about 12".  You can gnaw your way through one of those and impress people about how an old circle mill can still tear up a log.  But, don't expect that setup to sit there and zip through a big, old oak log with the same sort of precision and speed.   
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Jim,for your own use the detroit would be the pick of the litter for power.As Ron said at a show cut smaller logs and the case should handle it.What would make a show would be to challenge your buddies to belt up their tractors and see if they can pull the mill.Figure the tractor pulley dia.and rpm to the arbor pulley size and have the saw doc. hammer to near that rpm if possible.Practice on the mill before so you look like a smooth dude at the show and enjoy. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Meadows Miller

Gday

and Welcome to the Forum Jim  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) sounds like a great project your working on and that your nearly done  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) im also working on my grandfathers meadows but ittl be afew more years before i have it running  ;) ;D  with 20hp steam is the eqivelent of about a 100 odd hp + diesel motor so the 371 would be your best bet  ;) as the 32 horse motor would be just abit more than enough to run the feedworks on that size mill  mate   ;) :D

the old rule of thumb in australia is 2.5 hp per tooth in the saw Insert saws are usually hammered to run at between 550 to 650 rpm some run faster and some alittle slower so you might as well spend afew bucks on getting it hammered and leveled from the start  ;)are there any markings stating tooth style  ??? from the sounds of it with the number of teeth it might be an F or 2 1/2  style saw you have which you can still get bits and shanks for B styles are what i run and usually have less teeth than the dia as they have a pretty large gullet area Mate

I hope this helps and im looking forward to you imput here Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

Regards Chris

4TH Generation Timbergetter

apm

The 371 would certainly be more efficient, but the tractor would probably be more authentic. With speed calculations, and low power (the tractor) you need to be concerned with the saw rpm actually "in the cut". Free speed doesn't really matter all that much as long as the saw stands straight, but you'll want to maintain your hammered rpm throughout the length of cut. If your power is marginal, you may get as much as 100-150 rpm drop in speed while actually loading the saw.
How about putting wheels under the 371 to make it convenient to trailer it around?

Greg
Timberking 1600 now

jimparamedic

the post that are up are right in thier own way. On old mills were power was low they run fewer teeth I had an old sold tooth saw 50" with 24 teeth. The plate was so old that it was to then to keep running so I satarted using a newer bladed with 50" with 46 teeth at the time I was using an old sc case and not the power to run the saw so I put an ld tooth every other tooth and back to cutting just fine.Now I use a straight 6 250 chevy and when I have big logs or hard wood I will still go to every other tooth when sawing. It speeds up the cut and saves the blade from undo forces and heat caused by making dust instead of chips. I also have an American mill made in the early 1900 and love it. My mill is still all wood with some miner changes. Try this web site.
www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
This is a good site to.
http://www.shagbarkfarms.com/

tractormanNwv

Hello All,
    For now I would be Running the Mill with a Case DC-4...but only at the Show. I Found some  #"s close to the Arbor hole......9831....Does this Ring a Bell with Anyone? Also, Can Ya"ll Tell Me how to Determine what size/style teeth are on the Blade? While the Saw is at the Farm I'm sure the 3-71 Detroit would be Hooked up, but I also have  a 432 ci V-6 GMC gas Engine with about 230 hp  I Thought of Hooking to it with a Belt drive Governor.I Truly Appreciate Everyone"s Input on this Subject Thanks in Advance.

  Jim

bandmiller2

Jim,if the shanks are not rusted too bad they will have a number or letter on them and the gauge.If you cant find anything give us a good closeup picture.54 teeth is alot you could do as Jimparamedic says you can cut with every outher tooth with a short stuby in between.Just be sure you have a shank and short bit in the non cutting pocket.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Sawyerfortyish

I ran an American #1 mill for 16yrs. The American sawmill company was located in Hackettstown N.J. about 15 minuts from me.The first 5-6 years we ran it the mill was run with a 70hp ford tractor and flat belt. After that I got my hands on a 471 detroit. I ran either a 52 or 54" sawblade(I can't remember)Most of my blades had between42-44 teeth. The 70hp tractor was just not enough power in the big oaks I was sawing. Even the 471 had some power issues in big stuff. I'd sure like to see some pictures. Does your mill have a foot receeder to back up all the headblocks? My american had a 28"pulley but we had to put on a 20" pulley to get enough speed at the right rpm for the tractor. My blade was hammered for 550rpm and we ran it at 540rpm. If you can figure out the picture thing take a picture of the teeth in the blade. Is there any markings on the shanks numbers or letters?

tractormanNwv

I"ve been trying the Picture thing but it keeps saying something about a forbidden file or something so I quess pics are out of the question. Sorry

  Jim

captain_crunch

Trct man
The way I run my bellsaw is bring rpms up to where back of blade straitens up and no wobble.  This is how I was taught to do it. Send me your pics babjfoster@msn.com just mention Sawmill(so wife don't delete em) and I will post them for you. Pics are not bad to up load here but stay under 450 X 350 pxies and they will work. I had issues till Coalsmoke and Majicman helped me
Brian
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

Ron Wenrich

If you have that many teeth in a 54" saw, chances are that its an F pattern saw.  Your 9831 is the serial number for the saw.  The pattern number will be on the shank.  That's the part that holds the tooth in place.  You'll have a letter and a number on it if it is a more recent saw.  Most likely it will be either a B or F.  After that is a number which gives you the gauge, most likely an 8 or 9.  There may be a letter after that, like an H or P which denotes oversized shanks.

The other possibility is that it has a number on the shank, like 2 1/2 or 3.  Those shanks are a different style than those mentioned above.  I have never run one of those styles, but assume the stamping to be very similar to other saws.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

captain_crunch

M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

bandmiller2

Got any pictures of the feedworks and carriage??You've got quite a project Jim starting from ground zero.Its much harder to assemble a mill from a pile of parts than one that was set up and running.The hardest thing is setting up the distances between the parts right.I'am sure your upto it keep us posted.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

tractormanNwv

Been Trying to Work on the Mill a Little bit and have had a Time trying to Graft 2 Different Brands Together...(American Husk Frame Section  and Frick Carraige Section).  I was Cleaning on the Blade a little and Found the #'s  8,   F 8,  AND   7   on the Section that Holds each Tooth in Place, Does this Sound Familiar to Anyone? They also Say Simond on the Other Side. Hooked it up to My Case Tractor today and Ran the Blade around 350-400 rpm just to see how it would act. it Stood up pretty Good and Straight, and the Drawworks/Winchdrum for the Carraige Seem to Work ok in forward and Reverse, I Don't have any Cable on it Yet but it's Getting Closer.

  Thanks in Advance
Jim

Ron Wenrich

F8 just means you have a F pattern blade.  You'll be able to use typical Simonds teeth in the blade.  The 8 and the 7 are just the gauge of the shank. 

You can mix and match the husk and the carriage.  As long as the carriage fits the tracks, you're OK.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

tractormanNwv

Thanks Ron,

    I now have a better Idea as to what to Ask for when I buy new Teeth. Yes the Carraige and the Track are both from My Frick Mill.

  Jim

bandmiller2

Jim, not to worry their are very few pure bred handset mills around, sawyers mixed and matched picking what they liked best,or more likely what they had.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ron Wenrich

It gets more interesting when you mix and match carriage parts.  I had a Fahrquahr, which I could put Frick parts on with minor adaptions. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Thank You Sponsors!