Any thoughts about the coming heating season?

[submarinesailor]

FInally got a free monment to lookup the geothermal info.  Try this link and it SHOULD have all the information you need.

Bruce

http://www.geoexchange.org/

[ronwood]

OneWithWood,

How many cords did you burn last winter heating the greenhouses? Did you purchase a draft blower. I going without it. The claim you can burn fairly green wood.

DonE911,

I bought all my plex pipe, insulation, and sleeve (to keep insulation dry) from central Boiler. it ran around $6.00 per ft. installed.  Your biggest heat loss will occur if the water lines is not installed properly. I have a neighbor that had a Hardys and when the company installed it they did not insulate the plex pipe running to the house. He went back later and insulated the pipe. Cut his wood consumption in half.

Ron

[Ed]

I'm not to worried about it a home, 900 sq/ft house & well insulated. The natural gas bill will probably go up a little, but I can handle it.
Last spring we put in a Heatmore at my grandmothers, DanG glad we did. She's 96 years old & needs the house at least 76 degrees. Up until last year she supplemented the propane furnace with wood heat. It's a big old farm house & not really insulated very good, she would never be able to afford the propane.
My polebarn-shop is heated with a waste oil furnace, no price increase there!  :D :D :D
Ed

[DonE911]

The $65 a longbed truck full guy has a 80's model full size dodge pickup.  I've seen him running around with the wood. Has the same add painted over the rust on the truck.

I have read in the ag paper that prints that any firewood advertised for sale must list "common measurments" as to the amount being sold. ( or something like that )  I guess in this small area " a truck full " is a " common measure " ;D

Neighbor says he used to load up an old school bus and flatbed twice a year and take it down to Atlanta because it sold for 3 times what it does up here.   :  I don't know how accurate that is, but I didn't see to many loads headed south to Atlanta last year.

[beetle]

Paschale,

I can only comment on the heat pump since that is my source of heat and air conditioning. There is not a problem when the outside ambient drops to freezing or below, it just does not operate as efficiently. The backup heat source kicks in as needed to supliment the pump output when the temp falls below something like 30 degree's f.  At a buck seventy a month, I am happy.

[OneWithWood]

Ron,

Last winter we went through 55-60 rick, or somewhere close to 20 chord.  We have a draft controller.  The furnace does burn green wood.  We had the blower on continuosly when burning green wood in order to maintain water temp around 160°.  I got a jump on the wood this year and hope to be burning better seasoned wood.  I should also get all of next years wood split and stacked before December.  I am a strong believer of burning well seasoned wood (at least one year for oak, maple, beech).  We can controll the draft from the house or set it to auto but the wood needs to be dry for it to work properly.  Before we brought the big greenhouse online we heated the house, domestic hot H2O, and the small greenhouse and used about 40 rick, or 13+ chord.  We had to drop the house and hot H2O off last winter to keep the greenhouses above 40°, but we were burning very green wood all season.

[Paschale]

This is an interesting thread.  It seems in many ways, we're at the mercy of either the power companies, or in some cases, local zoning authorities who might not like to see a bit of smoke.  It seems to me with heating, far too often we're stuck over the barrel.   : The big question I have about the heat pumps is what happens if the electric company starts charging more?  :  My brother was saying that one of the reasons that the price of natural gas is so high is because many of the electric companies run natural gas in their generators, since coal was deemed too unsafe, and nuclear too dangerous as well.  I look forward to the day when the nukes are back online, but that won't be for a long time yet.  Regardless, if a lot of power companies rely on natural gas, then their higher cost will trickle down in the electric bills, so I wonder if a heat pump, and it's initial investment is worth it.   ???  I have a lot more research to do, but I was just looking at my furnace last night and I know that pup's a hungry behemoth that needs taming somehow!

[Woodcarver]

I have a good friend who installed a heat pump in his home when he built it 25 years ago. He has remarked a couple of times that, if he had it to do over again, he wouldn't do it in our climate. Our tempatures fall well below zero at times and his heat pump doesn't produce enough heat to warm the house.  When that happens he has to rely on his back-up electric heat to bring the house up to a comfortable temperature. That gets to be expensive.  :(

Of course, in 25 years they may have improved the heat pumps, too.

[IndyIan]

I just wanted to add that anyone thinking about an outdoor boiler should go to www.woodheat.org and read abit about them.  They do have testimonies of people who are doing quite well with them under their circumstances.
Also read what Bob from pensylvania did. With a some modifications he doubled the measured efficiency of his boiler, which shows that his particular boiler was not really well designed at the factory...

Also for folks in Canada, there is program that will pay for upgrading your home's insulation. 
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/home-improvement/grant/grants.cfm?attr=4
My buddy did this on his old house and a $1800 blown in insulation job only cost him $200 which he'll save in the first 2 months this year.

[Shotgun]

T-Bone Dan,                 Re: Groundwater Heat Pumps 

We built a new house in 1990 in Traverse City, MI, and natural gas was about $50,000 away from the house at the time. Decided to go with a groundwater heat pump.  Took water from a well, removed a little heat from it and returned it to the ground via a 100' perforated open ended pipe.  We live on a sand hill so no problem getting rid of the water. It never did come out the far end. We got a special power rate for having an all-electric home, and back then there was still a tax incentive for using the geothermal unit.  Used the unit for 10 years and it worked well from a heating standpoint. It was great from an effeciency standpoint. It lacked a little from a maintenance standpoint though. Had two 80 gal. water tanks to reduce pump cycling.

House is 2,400 sq. ft.  Total electric cost was about $1200/year.  We also have an irrigation system that comes from the same well.  During the summer the unit (reversed) was a very nice air conditioner. I was more than happy with that as our total utility bill. 

It's a pretty comples system and relies on the fact that it all works. Had to have it maintained about twice a year. Even with routine maintenance, it needed a little special tuning at times. Thus the downfall. It involves a pump in the well, a condensor, circulation pumps and selenoids to control the valves, and a take away pump to move the water to the dispersal line. When everything works, fine.  When it doesn't, you have a problem. It had a supplemental electric heat, that seldom was used. If you turned the temp down, it didn't come up again real fast.  Instructions were to set it and leave it.

Bottom line, I didn't feel that I could depend on it while we were in FL for the winter. Life changed over 10 years.  Hadn't thought that far ahead, I guess.  During that time the natural gas became available  with someone else's $50,000. In 1999 I took it out and replaced it with a high effeciency gas furnace with an igniter.  Had to install an airconditioner too--spoiled by that time, even in Traverse City.

All in all, we paid for the increased original cost. Not sure I'd do it again, given the availability of natural gas. It was interesting though, and I proved it worked in this far north.  There are a number of them around here still in operation, and they're still installing them.

Norm

PS - Missed you at the pig roast.

[wiam]

I have had a Central Boiler for 6 years.  I CANNOT KEEP WARM WHEN IT IS -30 WITH WIND BLOWING WITH DRY WOOD.   If I burn green maple I can keep the house at 75 no problem.  Dry wood will not last in a CB.  Having said this I wish I bought mine years earlier.

Will

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't know too much about heat pumps and groundwater.  But, it seems to me that it would be more efficient to take water that you can heat with some solar panels, and then remove the heat with a heat pump.  It seems to me that you caould replentish that heat when the suns out.

How much water do you run through one of those types of heat pumps?  How many degrees do you drop the water temp? 

I know that with my unsophisticated solar heater I can raise 400 gals about 4-5 degrees on a sunny day.  A well designed system should do something better.

[Paschale]

Hey Shotgun,

Thanks for the comments--I appreciate hearing from someone who's had one of those here in Michigan.  It sounds like it's probably not the best fix for me here, so it's time to move to a high efficiency furnace.  Looks like I'll have to dip into the savings a bit, but I think over a few years, it will pay for itself.   :

I definitely missed seeing everybody at the Pigroast myself--that's still a great memory I have of last year.  Hopefully there's


always next year, and I'll be sure to be wearing my .   ;D

[D._Frederick]

I don't know if there is any type of heating system that I would trust to run 3 months without needing help. There is always the risk of fire if there is malfunction in a heating system.

I use diesel oil for heating and have enough storage to last 2 years when every thing is full. Up to this year, I was always able to stock-up by buying in the off-season. With this war going, I doubt if we will ever again to be able to buy fuel for under dollar per gallon.

The problem with being hooked up to gas or electric is that you can't shop for the best price. If you are depended on electric power, you should have a generator  back-up.

[Shotgun]

Paschale,

Maybe you could install a groundwater system and paint it green & white. It'd be a winner then.  ;D

I went there for two years, before I went to MTU. I can't think of you with any other hat on.  :D

Hope to see you next year. You need to get your priorities straightened out. 

Norm

[D._Frederick]

I checked on the price of off-road diesel today, it had jumped up to $2.44 a gallon and we didn't have a storm here. Regular gas, $2.70-2.80 range.

Its going to be a long costly winter comimg up!

[hydro2]

I put a Hardy outside wood furnace in last year.  I figured at last years nat gas prices it would take about 4 yrs to pay for itself.  I had obout $5,000 in the unit and piping and heat exchangers.

I've been considering putting in an outdoor furnace this year.  It just seems to be a good choice with all these slabs laying around and LP is getting expensive.   

For those that have done it....  how long do you figure it takes for the furnace to pay for itself?

[farmerdoug]

I got a jump on the wood this year and hope to be burning better seasoned wood.  I should also get all of next years wood split and stacked before December.  I am a strong believer of burning well seasoned wood (at least one year for oak, maple, beech). 

Onewithwood,
I have a central boiler and burned a quite of bit of seasoned wood last winter.  I had problems with creosote from the seasoned wood causing the draft door sticking shut.  Make sure you clean the creosote off the door at least once a month.

Farmerdoug