hydraulic jacks to tip trees

[rebocardo]

I have noticed they use hydraulic jacks to tip over the bigger trees, is this worth using?

I just cut down my biggest tree yet. It was water oak 36 inches wide and with a 2-3 inch hinge I had real trouble tipping it over with wedges like I do on smaller trees.

I think there was not enough trunk length (8 feet tops) to act as a lever on the notch or maybe the hinge was still too big even though it was less then 1/10 of the trunk width?

I noticed in a Bailey's catalog they cut a notch out of the trunk to place the jack, which looks like a regular bottle jack with a wide steel plate. I assume they then give the tree the extra 1-2 inches it needs to tip?

[Larry]

I have used just a regular bottle jack to tip a tree over a few times.  Cut a perch for the jack to sit on at the back of the tree.  Worked great and much cheaper than the commercial jacks.  Urbanlogger posted a picture a while back where he was using a bottle jack to split a big log.  He did a great job cutting the pocket.  Wedges give a lot more lift close to the hinge but are hard to drive.  On the back side of the tree little lift but a lot of power to raise the tree and easy to drive.  Mulitply wedges around the tree work the best and get the 12" ones.  There is also a method where you can double up or more with your wedges but it is hard for me to describe.

One caution to using a bottle jack -- you must be very good with a chainsaw and be capable of bore cutting.

[rebocardo]

Thanks for the information, that is what I needed!

[Kevin]

Another method to consider is a good bull line placed high in the tree.
You can then get someone to pull it with a come- a- long from a safe distance.


Baileys has the Silvey ...

[Kevin]

Larry was this the method you were thinking of ...?

[Stephen_Wiley]

  WORD OF CAUTION     :

In addition to Larry Copas's comments..........plunge cutting not done properly will result in kickback and possible bodily harm.

Anyone considering using 'bottle jacks' in place of professional hydraulic jacks need to take extra precautions. And have a back up plan for failure of jack or jack placement.

Kevin shows a professional jack in the posts above; note the upper plate, lower plate, diameter of jack and heavy springs to maintain plate surfaces.  Compare this to a bottle jack.

Use of a bottle jack will  require putting a large plate over tip of jack. Since this plate is not secured by springs, extreme pressure upon fall could expel this plate and cause serious harm.  Without a plate jack will bury itself into the wood.

Also note equivelant size of bottle jack - 16 to 20 ton will often be taller than the professional jack requiring deeper bed surface.

Further bottle jack will require standing close to tree with short handle pump and no pressure guage to warn of back pressure on jack.

All in all, yes a bottle jack can be used, but risks of bodily injury increase as it was NOT designed for this specific work.

NOTE:  Even the professional jacks have been known to explode because of increased pressure or mechanical spring failure. Yet they are designed to perform far superior to bottle jacks.

[Larry]

Stephen is right on all counts about the dangers of using a bottle jack.  He came up with a couple of things I hadn't even thought of.  Thanks Stephen for the well thought out post.

Kevin's picture of the double wedges is how I do it.  Takes a little planing before you put in the first wedge.

[Frank_Pender]

Thanks Stephen, you done good with the explaination.  I have seen those bottle jacks give way and kick back.  they can fly a long way under that kind of pressure.   Then you have the better than average chance of the tree falling the opposite direction without the jack or wedges.   This then multiplys the issue of danger, bodely damage and death. :'(

[rebocardo]

Stephen,

Thank you for the information. I do not plan on doing any plunge cuts until I take a chainsaw safety course!  This is more like planning for the future to make sure I do not get stuck again like I was.

[Stan]

Do you think the spreader attachment from my portapower would work?  ??? My trees ain't very big, they're just pointed at the power lines.  :-/

[woodmills1]

Plunge cut.  Start with bottem of bar near end, as soon as the chain starts to cut rotate the tip into the tree as you push in.  Requires sharp chain and full power.  As always wrap your hand around bar handles, don't let you thumb ride on top, and keep your arms straight and body part out of the line of the saw.  Practice it.  Don't start right on the tip that is kick back territory.  I do it all the time to insure I don't rip the centers out of the oaks when they fall.

[etat]

Stan, no.  A smaller tree you're not going to be able to have enough room for the hydraulic wedge and the saw, too. With a porta power the jack is seperate from  the wedge, ie, wedge. hydraulic hose and seperate jack, a porta power wedge is not designed for that type of load and may fail.  Sounds like you may need a cable or chain and something to pull from higher up the tree.   "All ideas are worth exploring, but not every idea is a good one" (cktate,12-10-2003)

[Stan]

Well we did that pulling from about 15' up the tree and got a barber chair. I'd like to avoid that!  :-/ I guess I'm gonna have to learn that plunge cut.  : The guy helping is a real old time cutter, whose main occupation is sellin' firewood. He's tryin' to avoid comin' back to finish up.

[Kevin]

Stan;
Back leaners should have a good open face notch.
You can wedge, jack or pull them towards the lay depending on the tree.
When pulling them with a rope, higher is better.
If you experienced splitting I imagine you were pulling too hard without a proper notch and or back cut.

I like to leave a little higher hinge on these guys so there's sufficient fiber to control the tree.



Norwood has what they call the Timber Tool.
http://www.norwoodindustries.com/timbertool.htm

[chet]

When using the method Kevin is explaining, it is a good idea to do a test pull before any cutting takes place to see if you can actually lift the tree with the setup you are using. Cutting the tree, only to find you can't lift it, is not something you want to do.

[Kevin]

That's when you bring in the CHEVY !  ;D

[Stephen_Wiley]

Better put a tight pull on that chevy and leave the engine running........may not start again.  :D :D :D

[Stephen_Wiley]

Stan,
 
How many trees, what species and how close to the power lines?

Since you had one barber chair already, use of your porta power might result in the cause of the next  barber chair. If  these trees are cottonwood, locust, silver maple to mention a few they will be prone to barber chairing.

Your best plan of attack would be to hire a professional faller. However if that is not possible, what Kevin has pictured (depending upon lean as Chet warned) will be your safest approach.

One other thought is - if -  these trees are within 10 feet of high tension leads. You may be able as property owner to get the utility ROW maintenance to drop them safely for you. Or reduce them to safe height for falling.  

[chet]

A few years back we were working on a rural road clearing utility lines. When we shut our equipment down to have lunch, we could hear the most God awful commotion up the road. Upon investigation we found two elderly gentleman playing tug of war with a VERY VERY large White Pine. They had unsuccessfully tried to lift it with wedges. They then climbed onto the roof of their Willy's Jeep and tied a cable (15' up the tree at most). Their big problem was every time they attempted to pull the tree, it would lift the back of the little Jeep off the ground and they would skid back.    Not more than 15' behind this tree was a 14.4 KV high voltage power line, and not more than 50' further was their cottage.  :-/

Oh....... And the cable they were pulling with......... well it was less than 1/2 as long as the tree was tall.    

[Stephen_Wiley]

Chet,

Do ya suppose, that your work reminded these two old timers of some work they needed to do ?  And what better educational opportunity than to get out there and show you young bucks the way they never did it when they were young !!   :D :D :D :D

[Kevin]

depending on the tree

There are many variables due to size,shape and condition.
You have to work within your limits or get some outside help.

[Stan]

Well there's a red oak, a pignut hickory, a couple of small white pines, a yellow pine and a couple of red maples. I'm tryin' to get the shade off the corn/tater patch. There ain't no professional cutters around here, only some guys who get paid for it. I'll take some pictures of the latest cuttin' and let you see for yourself. The electric company won't do this, I cleared everything back to their specs 7 years ago, and have been bushhoggin ever since.  :-/ I think the old boy who was helpin' scared himself real bad when that tree split on him, he ain't been back to get the rest of his share.  :'( Oh and the truck is a Dodge.  :D

[Kevin]

Stan;
I was looking at your map and you're just a little below Jeff and a little above Tom so we should be able to get one or both of them over to help you.

[Jeff]

Dont bring me into this. I was always taught that a bottle of Jack has no place around chainsaws and fellin trees. Besides I'm into making them square, not shorter.

[Stephen_Wiley]

According to the map..........it looks like Gentleman Sawyer and Big toe (If he's not Silver Streaming) are closest. Maybe they know of a good faller in your area.

[Kevin]

On larger trees this will increase your pulling power with a vehicle and help keep the wheels on the ground for traction.



A= block
B=anchor

side view

[crosscut]

if it just a fire wood tree id just leave it alone sure not worth that much risk  ;)

[Stan]

The DanG trees are shadin' the corn and tater patch, they have to go. They have to fall backwards so the electric line don't get broke. My cutter had open heart surgery and won't be available for 12 weeks, he says. I might have to buy a bull dozer and push 'em over, then sell the dozer. Do you think I could make a profit?  

[Frank_Pender]

Stan, you may be better off to rent the dozer or a track/back hoe and just dig them babies out of the ground.   It all depends on have valuable your taters and corn are to you and your family.

[Oregon_Rob]

I once had a black cherry barber chair on me using the truck to pull it tight/over, but it was my own fault and i was in the cab backing down on the tree when it happened, so i wasn't to worried bout it. I was trying to put a little preload on it and had planned on finishing the cut. In hind sight, it was bad logic. If I had too much pull and went back to finish the cut, i could have gotten an ugly supprise.

[Kevin]

I wouldn't pull a tree with a vehicle without someone making the back cut to relieve the tension.
I've done it using a come a long and felled the tree myself and it can be done safely but always safer with two people as long as each knows what the other is doing.

[Timber Toad]

[Timber Toad]

[enigmaT120]

Any more pics in that sequence TT?  I saw that tree and figured it must be in the Pacific Northwest.  No snow in tropical rain forests.

[danbuendgen]

Since you had one barber chair already

To prevent a barber chair, if you are cutting heavy learners, just use a heavy duty ratchet strap or and chain and binder, and wrap up the bottom of the tree.

I have never used a bottle jack to tip over a tree. When I am logging I dont bother tipping a tree over backwards, I just clear a good size hole for the tree to fall in the direction it is leaning.

If you have to tip a tree over backwards, power lines, house, ect, pulling it over with a cable or heavy rope is best. Easy and much safer. If you are worried about a barber chair, like I just said, use a strap or binder on the bottom of the trunk to hold it together.

And please don't cut trees if you don't know what you are doing. Lots of professionals get hurt of die hand cutting trees....one simple mistake and you are 6 feet under. GOOD LUCK.

[RHP Logging]

Old thread huh?  Pretty sure that's not snow.

[enigmaT120]

Ah you're right, sawdust. 

[gimpy]

On larger trees this will increase your pulling power with a vehicle and help keep the wheels on the ground for traction.



A= block
B=anchor

side view

Since it's not a Chevy, it's easier and kinder to just use a short cable and a straight pull.  8)