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Cold weather starting

Started by concretecutter, January 03, 2016, 05:49:24 PM

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concretecutter


Jhenderson

Quote from: Gary_C on January 04, 2016, 11:56:42 AM
I know that many loggers do this split swapping but it can be very hard on your pickup engine because of the cold shock of the cold antifreeze hitting a warm engine components. If you have a newer pickup, it will void your engine warranty if the dealer sees those connections. It's especially hard on engines with aluminum parts.

So be aware of the downside.

When I pull into the landing the truck temp is about 180, hook up and it never goes below 140. Not much of a shock.

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

concretecutter


starmac

The mills company pickups all have these and they are duramaxes, which have aluminum heads iirc, no engine problems.
The logger I am currantly hauling for needs something and talked to ford about it, all they told him was he would have to change the antifreeze in his machine to match the pickup.
The logging crew that does use them, does not work at temps below 25 below though.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Gary_C

Quote from: Jhenderson on January 04, 2016, 08:12:16 PM

When I pull into the landing the truck temp is about 180, hook up and it never goes below 140. Not much of a shock.

Did you know if you stood with one foot in a bucket of boiling water and one foot in a bucket of ice water, on the average you would be comfortable.  ::)

Put that engine temperature gauge sender where that cold water hits the block and see what the thermal shock is.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

David-L

I have had good luck with gen set and a 750watt block heater on my jack with a 353 Detroit. By the time I am ready to go ( 20 or so min ) she fires right up. try to never use either but a quick snort from a warm can is sometimes better the grinding the 30MT starter to death.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

Jhenderson

Gary, how many years of actual experience do you have with this type of pre-heat? How many engines have you personally seen damaged by this practice? I'm wagering the answer is none.

Gary_C

Quote from: Jhenderson on January 05, 2016, 08:23:32 AM
Gary, how many years of actual experience do you have with this type of pre-heat? How many engines have you personally seen damaged by this practice? I'm wagering the answer is none.

You lose your wager.

The risk is real and all I am saying is:

Quote from: Gary_C on January 04, 2016, 11:56:42 AM

So be aware of the downside.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Plankton

I think it would be helpful to hear the specifics around the engine failure gary. I am in the process of getting this setup together this week hopefully and simply being aware that there is a downside will not help me avoid damage or prevent it.

OH logger

I too have the generator on the truck all winter long and plug in the block heaters on the equipment. half hour does a  lot of good
john

s grinder

I think the big issue would be make sure you have the same type of coolant in both vehicles

Jhenderson

Gary's not talking for a reason. 4 decades or more of this pre- heat system and I've never even heard of never mind seen a problem. Let's see, how many $1000 for a self contained pre heat system? How much for a generator ? And then it's got to be maintained and kept locked up when your not babysitting it, plus an hour or so for 80-100 water temp.When  I went in today it was 5 degrees above. Hooked up 2 jumper hoses. By the time my saw was sharp and all my stuff loaded into the machine ( about 20 minutes tops ) my rig started like it was July. All for less than $100 not including a coolant flush that the machine deserved anyway. As for shock cooling remember there are 4 sets of quick connects. They are a big restriction in the fluid transfer. Slow flow means no shock. Of corse th truck motor got a good shock leaving home when the thermostat opened and a radiator ful of 5 degree coolant hit th block but we'll ignore that out of consideration for Gary. He's obviously fact adverse.

beenthere

Hope you can keep this forum friendly, and not bashing members. Just sayin... State your opinion and let it go.. at that.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

OntarioAl

I used them when I first started out as  did many of the small operators.
I was and many of my fellow loggers were never comfortable using them to warm up  machines that were "cold soaked" over night or weekend in -35F to -40F. even though the ambient temperature had risen to a balmy -20F, for various reasons some of them already cited. 
A lot of us gravitated to these propane "hot boxes" which work on convection to circulate the antifreeze.

The set up is exactly the same except you are using a stand alone system and not your truck's cooling system.
Al
Al Raman

red

I have seen some military hot box heaters that run on Diesel . Half hour sounds about right.
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

47sawdust

Ontario Al,
Is that hot box still being made?Looks like a good idea to me.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

OntarioAl

They were popular thirty years ago. I do not think that they are made anymore.
Al
Al Raman

Jhenderson

Sometimes it's tough to keep it friendly when people intentionally confuse opinion and fact. I just read here that a lot of guys didn't like the idea of a transfusion into a cold soaked motor. Notice the poster never said it caused a failure. He just said some guys didn't like it. That's the difference. He knows opinion from fact. The fact is until our Detroit powered  machines became available with Cummins power we were stuck pre heating and still have to at severely cold temps.  At that point in time ( 30years ago)  there were few other widely available means of heating the motor. No programmable Pro Heat, no small, inexpensive generators, just your pickup an jumper hoses. Detroit supplied the block plates with nipples and you built the rest. I've got over 1 million miles on trucks with heater hook ups that have been used every winter without any problems. Funny how there's no direct reference to someone who's had trouble, just " I'm warning you".

beenthere

JH
Nothing to get worked up about.. opinions and experiences vary. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Grandpa

Do any of you have any long term, real world experience mixing green and red antifreeze? I've been told it is a no no  and wonder what happens in the real world.

Jhenderson

I have none. When I got my 04 dodge it used HOAT coolant. I drained and flushed the forwarder and refilled with matching coolant. My 15 uses OAT coolant so I changed out the machine again. I know some coolants claim to mix with any but I prefer to run what comes in the truck. It's an opportunity to flush the machine system and for $30 give or take its piece of mind. Sorry I'm not more help.

Bandmill Bandit

I haven't done it for a few years but used it all the time when I was farming. I used stainless ball valves to control the coolant flow so as not to heat shock the cold engine or cold shock the hot engine. I had built a small control box with the 3 valves mounted solid in it with in and out temp gauges that I mounted under the hood of the service truck with the aluminum cam lock quick disconnects on the valves. I used 3/4 inch heater hose. Service truck was a ford F250 with a 460 in it and I was running a 192* thermostat in it in winter. I used 3 valves. One was a mixing valve that made sure I was not dumping pure hot or pure cold in either direction.
 

I kept the hot engine at minimum 150* F and slowly adjusted the valves as the cold engine warmed up. I let it run till the cold one was holding 120* or above for 10 minutes. The target temp of 150* was to keep the thermostat on the service truck closed so that ALL the cooling the 460 required was coming from the cold engine. At minus 40*F it took 45 minutes to an hour to warm up a 466 John Deere or a 504 Case. The smaller 4 bangers took 30 to 45 minutes.

Also made sure that ALL engines I used it on had the same type of antifreeze but in the 70s and 80s that wasn't much of an issue.

ALL of the above is based on general knowledge of what can happen with cold or hot shock. I never had any issues of any kind with my little control box and it  was likely over kill. But the peace of mind that that little box gave me was worth every cent it cost to build. I know quite few guys scoffed me for wasting the money on it and I don't know weather any of them ever had issues because of the potential shock factor. What I know for a fact is that it kept me from ever have to find out the hard way.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

chevytaHOE5674

Last winter my mechanic had a Duramax sitting in his shop that had a cracked head. Logger plugged in his stone cold skidder at -25* F and within a minute the head was cracked. I've always heard of spit swabbing causing motor troubles but this was the first time I'd seen it first hand.

Grandpa

Jhenderson, I also heard (more internet wisdom) that if you put red or pink antifreeze in an engine designed for green that a chemical reaction would cause the head gasket to fail. The same thing was supposed to happen if you put green antifreeze in an  engine designed for red or pink.

Is it safe for me to assume that you have had all three kinds in the same engine with no head gasket trouble?

Also, what engine do you have?

Thanks        ???    ::)

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