Buying an old skidder

[junkstang]

I am looking at a 440 john deere cable skidder.  The motor was rebuilt and the clutch was replaced a little over a year ago buy the previous ower (The current ower has all of the paper work and reciepts from he machine shop and parts).  When looking quickly and in the dark it looked like over $2000 spent.  The machine appears relatively clean for its age but I noticed wear in the shifter linkage on the right hand side and a wire tied to the seat bracket holding up the differential lock.  The guy selling it is a farmer and used it to log about 15 acres of hardwood on weekends.  I admired his operation from afar and stopped when I saw the skidder for sale.  When asked about the wire and diff. lock he said "it was that way when I  bought it and I never untied it because I never needed it".  He was logging a flat dry area, should I believe him?  I am wondering if I untie the wire and engage the lock the whole machine may explode!!!!  He let me operate the machine (test drive) but I was afraid to try the diff. lock and have no skidder experience.  I have farmed all my life and have snaked logs with a super C farmall and other various tractors. Is it a spring that disengages the differential lock? My guess is the lock may fall in and the machine would be more difficult to drive so the wire is keeping the lock from freely engaging.   Or is somethng more serious taking place?  I would hate to break his machine and then not buy it.  He is asking $5000.00 and states that is what he paid for the skidder and he finished his logging project about a month ago. He states the machine is ready to go in the woods.  Another plus is the machine is 4 miles from my house and can be driven home in a few minutes  The tires maybe 25% and do not have water in them.  The left front blade cylinder is leaking, but I have experiece fixing hydraulic cylinder if I can get the parts.  Most of the woods that I plan to log are relatively flat, but I have some nice logs to winch off of bluffs beside the creeks. What specifically should I look at when I go back and how can I test the machine while test driving?  I plan on getting the serial number when I go back so i can determine if it is a 440 or 440A.  The decals are gone.   Thanks for any assistance.  I am being told by one guy to run and forget about the old machine and another guy is telling me to buy it today!!!!!   I also need to push up some old fence and 1-2 inch saplings, will this machine do this work also?  Save on dozer hire.

[fishpharmer]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum. 8) 8)

[Gary_C]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum. Tell us more about yourself including where you are located.

As far as advice on that machine, it's hard to do without seeing the machine with your own eyes. I know how difficult it is when you've not driven one, but just look at the pivot points for looseness and wear. If you really want to check it out, pull oil samples from the tranny and differentials and send them in for analysis.

On the diff lock, you are probably right about some type of spring to keep it from engaging. If it engages, it will not ruin the machine immediately, but it will make it hard to turn. In fact even the newer machines have warning lights and alarms to remind you that you cannot turn the machine with the locks engaged. So go ahead and try it, you cannot destroy the machine in a short distance. But you may find some problem if it exists.

[Magicman]

First.....Welcome to FF....

The owner should be willing to let you shift/unshift and put the machine through it's normal activities.  Maybe he is willing to do it himself.  He should be.  Sounds like he is not trying to "hide" anything.

Most "old" machines like that will still do a very good job.  They just aren't good enough for production work.

[shinnlinger]

I don't know much about skidders, but I believe the original 440 dates back to the 60's and it is hard to get tranny and axle parts for them nowadays, so I would pay close attention to those parts, clunks and what not....  a fluid analysis would be money well spent.

They can be unstable on hills so make sure you can disengage the winch quickly to let them  settle down.  If the winch is working well though, I would think you could just release it and drive to firmer ground and then winch the load to you if you were worried about your diff locks.

That said, a $5000 "ready to work" skidder, 4 miles from your house is a deal you will never see again.  However, it is is only a deal if you are willing to work on it yourself and don't mind doing it as you know that machine will need TLC from time to time.  If you are only going to use it on the occasional weekend, probably a good idea, but then again, a Farmi type winch setup for the back of your existing tractor might be an equally good idea for less $$.

[FFLM]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum
As for the skidder, sounds like a good deal to me, a machine that will move/operate for that kind of money is not bad in my eyes.  Just be careful as you can spend lots and lots of money in short order.  I purchased an old Timberjack this spring and have slowly dumped about $7500.00 into it to get it woods ready.  

Good luck

Look around the F.F.  as you will find a wealth of knowledge about old iron like the 440

[junkstang]

Good evening and I am glad to be a part of the forum.  A little about myself.  I am living on my family farm in Southside Virginia about an hour north of the N.C. state line.  I teach Agricultural Education in a traditional agriculture program.  We have a 150 acre farm at the school iinwhich we raise corn, vegetables, catfish, cattle and horses.  We also have about 50 acres of managed forest inwhich we teach natural resources and forestry.  I home my father, son and I are farming about 500 acres of which a little over 200 are in forest.  Some planted pines and mixed hardwood.  we have used loggers in the past to cut small tracts but with the farm income being less and less.  I am looking for something else to generate a few dollars on the farm.  I great grandfather had a mill on the farm and logged with horses and pieces of the mill are around the farm like paper weights.  I have an old truck and an old loader and 3 sawmills within 20 miles and one within 2 miles of my farm.  The cash crop on my farm for over 150 years has been tobacco and beef cows.  With tobacco production being cut every year and cows are weak right now   I think I need to start harvesting my own timber, most loggers around here charge 1/2.  I love working on old equipment and most of my farm equipment is 1950's and as far as cars and trucks go I like the 1940's.  My house is 200 years old.  So I like old stuff!!!  but I do own a new tractor and some haying equipment and yes it can spoil you!!!! Air condition, heaters, wipers, and air ride seats.

I am excited about going out and checking out this machine again.  My first impulse was to bring it home!!!!  I even told my wife and she just smiled.........  and now I am thinking it is to good to be true, something has to be wrong.

So there is a little about me.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Welcome to the forum. I'm not fond of john deere equipment but there 440 skidder and 450 dozer are very popular. I have 2 timberjacks. Both machines have lockers in the rears front and rear and are locked all the time. If I was buying a machine I sure would want to know if anything was wrong with it. Just a couple things to look at. I would not be to worried about the center pin it's probably worn and has play but unless it's really bad it can go a long time. Make sure the winch releases and spools out freely and also winds in also a big saftey issue make sure the brakes work. If you can't apply the parking brake how are you going to winch anything? You need to apply the brake to park the machine to spool out the cable to hook up to a tree. Tire tread is not a big deal if you need more traction add a set of chains. One thing to think about on JD is that the hydraulic system and transmission from what i'm told uses the same oil. In other words if the trans has metal in the oil your hydraulic system will to. Now if theres any JD fans here correct me if i'm wrong. Like I said i'm not a JD fan even tho JD now owns timberjack >:(.

[TeaW]

The only thing that will happen if you release that wire and use the diff lock, is it will probably leak oil.There is  hydraulic line that runs from the lock to the top of the differential case, the fiitting on the top of the diff is probably broke or if you are lucky just a lose hosefitting. It is an easy fix but hard to get at.It is a small fitting one of JD's own sizes that is hard to find. I have run mine wired up at times untill I had time to fix it. If you dont and forget its on, it soon drains the hydraulic oil. If it was around here I would pay that for a parts machine.

[timberfaller390]

The last 440 I found around herehad an askink price of 5,000 and there were several parts missing

[Reddog]

Tire tread is not a big deal if you need more traction add a set of chains

Sorry but I greatly disagree with this.
The 440's did not have enough enclosed ROPS to run chains any time but when the ground is covered with a few feet of snow.
The chains will pick up slash and beat you with it in the cab.

Of the three large outfits I worked for we where not allowed to run chains on any of the open cab machines until well into winter.
They'ed all had operators killed by slash come into the cab and ether impaling them or trapping and squishing the operator.
With the fully enclosed and screened cabs, we ran net chains for rock protection year around. It was amazing what would bounce of the windows.

[Jeff]

Totally agree with Reddog. I cut my teeth on a 440 and you will surely die if you run chains other then in the snow pack.  I about bought the farm once with slash coming in the front from running "against" the skid trail.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Like I said in my first post I'm not a JD fan I run timberjack. My 230 has an open cage and I run ring chains year round and have never had an incident. I wasn't aware of the chain and tire problem of JD. Just another reason for me to dislike JD.

[junkstang]

The skidder owner is duck hunting in Utah.  I am enjoying reading the comments and advice.  Which I need because skidders are a new game to me.  I am hoping to get back over to look closer and operate it over the weekend.  I will definitly try the differential lock, look for leaks and see if I can find a spring missing.  The open cab and cab design was a concern to me also and I didn't see a seat belt either.  Maybe I can make one.  I have some experience building cages and installing harnesses in race cars.  I figured it should have a lap belt or is it to much trouble while operating and choking logs? As far as being tippy or as the cage or cab goes it is probably safer than a tricycle farmall super C and M tractor which I have snaked with in the past.
   
Thanks junkstang

[oaksmill]

I would shop around and compare prices. There is currently a JD 440 on ebay, and take a look on equipmenttrader.com. A $5000 skidder may not be a bargain if the hydraulics are leaking and it needs other work. It could end up costing you another $5000 in repairs, plus it's not making you money sitting there for months on end while you're trying to find parts for it. They started making the 440 in 1965, the 440A in 1966, and the 440B in 1971.

[Reddog]

Like I said in my first post I'm not a JD fan I run timberjack. My 230 has an open cage and I run ring chains year round and have never had an incident. I wasn't aware of the chain and tire problem of JD. Just another reason for me to dislike JD.

I has nothing to do with just JD. It is a bad idea in any open rops skidder.
If it doesn't have screens and doors take the chains off in the summer and buy new tires.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Well i'm working in a woods I have worked in cutting hemlock for over 20 years. I cut a couple loads every year. I have always run my 230 with front chains in this woods now I'm running my 380 without chains and it won't go nowheres near as many places. The old 230 will climb out of these deep ravines and bowls.  With the 380 I have to pull the trees to where I can reach with a cable turn around and winch myself out then turn around and pull the trees up. It's a pain in the butt. I can't wait til I get chains for that.

[JDeere]

I am also in the market for a used skidder and after talking to about a dozen full-time loggers I have decided when I get serious about a particular skidder I will have one of them come with me to evaluate the skidder. I have logged with farm tractors for years and own a lot of heavy equipment but I don't know enough about skidders to make a good judgement about the condition. I think it would be well worth paying a logger to spend an hour or so looking it over.
The other thing to keep in mind is that John Deere skidder parts for older skidders are getting tough to find. A guy I know sells used skidders (has about 150 of them) and he told me as a friend to keep that in mind even if I bought one from him. Good luck with your decision.

[Screaming Detroit]

I have ran a C5 treefarmer for years and had rings on front and single diamonds on back and never had any problem with slash in the cab. As far as JD skidders they ok but can be pricey to fix.

[C5C Tree Farmer]

This thread brought back memories of the time I was making the transition from farm tractors to logging skidders. There was a variety of local comment available on what and what not to buy. "Stay away from JD skidders" one fellow told me. "They are miserable wretches to work on. JD started with a large square steel culvert, mounted all the parts and hydraulic components inside, and then welded the ends shut!"  Negative comments were also made about the funnel shaped canopy on the JD 440's that kept one hand busy keeping the brush out of ones face. However I met operators who ran their JD 440's and wouldn't dream of owning anything different.
I settled on a 1972 C5C Tree Farmer because it was basically a component machine that had good access for repair and maintenance....which I had plenty to do! I can still remember our first days together....oil leaking rapidly from all four hubs :-\....a Can-Car 20 winch that would only work reasonably well when Venus was aligned with Jupiter >:(....rear axle bolts that snapped off allowing the back driveshaft to cut itself in half on the edge of the fuel tank ....and so on.
Even with these issues it was still far superior to a farm tractor in the woods.
When checking out any used skidder check for slop in the hinge, cradle, and steering cylinder pins. While it doesn't really affect it's ability to skid wood it's nice to operate a machine with tight pins.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I has nothing to do with just JD. It is a bad idea in any open rops skidder.
If it doesn't have screens and doors take the chains off in the summer and buy new tires.

Or get yourself some wire mesh, and cut it to fit. Then weld it to the ROPS, thats what's been done around here. And it works pretty well, keeps the slash outside where it should be.

[grassfed]

For $ 5000, if the machine starts, runs and shifts well, steers well, the winch works well, the blade goes up and down and the tires hold air, and you do not have to pay a lot for shipping BUY IT NOW!   Don't worry about the diff lock... If it works great if not then you can still use the machine. For what you are paying don't be too picky. The one reason not to buy an old machine like this is if you are not mechanically inclined and would have to pay a dealer to fix it.  If that is the case then forget about any old skidder. My 440B costs about $500 a year for parts and about 10hrs of my labor. I use it to haul about 75-125 cords a year and have perhaps 2 days a season when the machine is not working and I could be working. Fuel grease oil and filters are extra time and money. If I had a dealer do the work and had to ship the machine back and forth it would probably cost $2500-$4000 a season.

[junkstang]

I went by and operated the skidder yesterday.  We pulled a few logs out of the woods.  We pulled up a tree length poplar with a 34" butt.  I was worried about the shift linkage, but the machine shifted relatively smooth.  Maybe because of the wear!!!!!

Two major concerns I noticed while operating.  The owner told me that a problem with the machine was that he would have to put the winch in gear before starting the machine.  The winch worked fine, the cable spooled off freely and I winched the poplar up a steep grade to the machine  (I saw at least 60' of cable, I forgot to ask how much was on the winch)  I snaked the log a good ways and then had to release and snake from the other end because of a y in the road.  It was at that point that we realized that the winch was out of gear (jumped out on its own, which the ower admitted that it did from time to time.)  I had to shut down the machine to put it back in gear.  Then it was back to work!  What would be the common cause that would cause the winch to jump out of gear? Would it be a major problem to fix?  I would hate to spend the day starting the machine over and over, hard on a starter.

The other issue was the blade, when pushed forward the blade would go down as expected and lift the front of the machine.  I had to fiddle with the lever to get the exact spot for the blade to lift and when I pulled it all the way back it would lock as he told me it should.  It seemed to be a very very small area in the control action that would lift the blade.  Is this an adjustment that can be fixed or is it a sign of something going wrong with the hydraulic system?

I am not expecting a perfect machine for $5000.00, but I would hate to have to spend $10,000 on it as soon as I get it home.



Thanks for all comments.   

[grassfed]

would cause the winch to jump out of gear

Only the older machines had a shifter for the winch. The newer ones had the holes for the winch shifter but the one on the transfer case was plugged with what looks like a freeze plug and there is no shifter lever.

On the newer rigs the winch runs all the time when the engine is running.

I bet that John Deere took the shifting mechanism out because it caused the problem you described.

You could go to jdparts.com and look at what is different between the older winch drive system and the newer system and see how hard it would be to lock the winch drive, on, permanently. It should not cause any problems leaving it on because as I said they got rid of the shifter on the later machines.

As far as what causes it to jump out, I am not sure but with something like that it is worse if it jumps out with the winch is under load than if it just falls out from vibration when you are driving around. If it pops out under load I would think bad bearing, shaft or gear. If it falls out from vibration could be sloppy linkage and you should just wire it like the Diff lock.

[mad murdock]

Is it a 440 A or 440 B?  If the winch is in working order, I think that you are getting a good deal.  As for dozing with a skidder, it is not sufficient to break a new road or something like that, the blade and the machine is not built for that kind of work.  The only skidder that I have operated that did a half way job of pushing dirt was a Franklin 132, which is about 3 times bigger than a JD 440.  I have a Garrett Model 15A, it has a beefier blade than the JD 440, but still is not really sufficient for any kind of regular dirt pushing.  I have used my machine for road maintenance, and pushing snow, and it works ok for those tasks. My experience has been that when using a skidder for heavy dirt moving, usually something ends up getting broke, the blade is just not heavy enough, and the hydraulic control does not allow for the finesse of fine dirt work, the machine is very good for clean up and brush piling though, and of course they can not be beat for dragging out wood. The JD 440 is a nice machine as it is very nimble, and has a low CG which makes it more sure footed on irregular (hilly) terrain, harder to tip over. Having said all of that, I do like my Garrett better than the JD 440, as it is similar in size, but parts are very inexpensive, as it was built with a lot of off the shelf parts, i.e. Ford diesel, heavy truck Trans, and Gearmatic winch, though the JD winch probably is more trouble free than the old gearmatic I have.  A TJ is more machine than  JD 440, but considering price and proximity to your place you are looking a ta a fair deal IMHO.