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Tired of poor surveys

Started by jrdwyer, February 17, 2004, 11:43:31 PM

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jrdwyer

So I am out in the wood trying to follow a land survey from 1982 before I begin marking a 250 acre tract of woods. Well it sure looks good on paper, but as I tromp the woods looking for pins, corner stones, etc., I realize that this surveyor did the absolute minimum amount of work possible in the field. Stuff like skinny rebar driven all the way into the ground with no adjacent steel posts or bearing trees. Of course such pins are almost impossible to find. Or referencing a corner stone with no adjacent pin/stake placement or bearing tree noted. On hilly terrain full of rocks of various shapes and sizes, agian next to impossible to find. The only good information I got in the field was done by Forest Service employees on the adjacent tract. Two FS aluminum bearing tree markers from 1979 that were still attached to the trees and in good shape and legible. I had no problem following these markers to the nearby corners.

I really find it amazing that so many land surveys are done with the assumption that no one will ever come back later to rework the lines. But hey, the unknowing landowners just let it happen.

Ron Wenrich

I've never seen a bearing tree here in the East.  Most of the old surveys are pretty good unless they go to the stick in the ice or to a point.  

I had one survey where the landowner had all the pin buried under the ground.  Seems he was having his above ground corners destroyed.  

I also had a surveyor who went and took the metes and bounds of a 1780 survey and used laser technology to find the corners.  We walked to well established corners and he said that wasn't the corner - it was over here another 25 ft.  He screwed up all the old surveys by not running to the existing corners.

Some surveyors might be good in the woods, but a lot of them aren't.  Then again, a lot of landowners don't want to spend the money to get a good survey and do even less for line maintainence.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ron Scott

There seems to be more and more land survey problems or errors when the surveyors don't work from the "original" survey notes. They just assume GIS results, leave poor markings, etc.

I'm currently waiting on one survey line to be corrected in court before we harvest the timber. A few other surveys in progress by registered surveyors.

If the landowner can't show me their property lines and corners through a registered landline survey, I don't do the timber until they have the property surveyed. They need to be responsible for their land ownership and take responsibility for their land lines.
~Ron

OneWithWood

My property and the surrounding tracts have been surveyed numerous times by different surveying outfits.  With each survey my southeast corner moved about 30 feet.  
The last survey lined up with where I thought the corner ought ot be based on my novice calculations.  I quickly stuck a fence post in the ground and placed a 2" 8' pvc pipe over it.  I also placed fence posts on pipes at the stakes on the perimeter line.  You cannot mistake where my property lines are.
Every election when someone runs for county surveyor they promise to locate all the original corner stones and correct all the ensuing surveys.  Once they are elected I think some have actually gone out and located a handfull of stones.  When they realize the havoc that would ensue if they corrected all the property lines they let the matter drop! ::)
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

SwampDonkey

I've also seen some slobby surveying done over the years in our area. Trouble is that sloppiness gets replicated and compounded throughout the survey grid. I know 3 areas that the lines as marked in the field are as much as 100 meters off the way they are mapped. I mean some areas a real obvious such as old cleared fields from the original land grant. Now when its an old grown up field and there are plow marks or rock piles or cedar line fences in place along the old field, how the heck can the new surveyed line end up offset 100 meters from the edge of the original field? One fellow I know it took him over 20 years to get his land mapped properlly. Everything was marked correct in the field but the mapping was a mess to say the least. This owner was concerned because he was surrounded by 2 forest companies and he has 3000 acres of silviculture completed on his lands over a 25 year period. He wasn't willing to give that up without a fight. Then there is another problem with joe landowner taking his axe and paint out and establishing his own boundary lines illegally. You can tell these sites when the owner follows the contour of a ridge top for his new line. No compass I know will point north in the shape of a snake. :)  Well I take that back. We did find a rounded hump in the middle of a cutblock that had magnetic influence. As you walked by this hump in a straight path, the needle pointed toward it. We had to eye-ball those cruise striplines. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

rebocardo

re:poor survey

I agree.

When I had a city property done, I paid $650 (back in 91) to have a family business that had been doing it for over 100 years and did most of the city come and do my small lot. When a guy pulls out an original blueprint to copy that his grandfather made, you are in the right boat. A poor survey can cost you money in the long run.

When my property in Maine was done, I followed it less then a year later and marked trees myself with tape and paint using a GPS before it got over grown. Very easy to lose a pin when a tree falls on it!

I guess the guy did an okay job, but, flagging little branches were the deer can eat the tape and calling it good is not the best idea.

SwampDonkey

@ Rebo et al

I've seen curious bear remove tape from trees too, as you say deer might. Especially in hardwood ridges where they go looking for beech nuts. You can tell when the bear has been around when you look up into the beech tree canopy and see a bear nest where he has been pulling in the branches and breaking them to obtain the nuts. I swear those animals are related to tree sloths, except they move alot swifter.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jrdwyer

As a follow up to the above message, I talked to my client, and he said that the surveyor stoped doing "that type of work" four years ago. Also, unfortunately, unless I can verify the location of one important corner stone from adjacent Forest Service records, it looks like another $1-3K minimal survey before the timber is cut again (last cut in 1983).

I have no problem flagging straight lines from known corner to known corner for timber sale purposes, but so many landowners ignore the importance of permanent markers. And surveyors don't help much with plats that give the apperance of permanence with notations to pins and corner stones, but are in reality pretty useless in the field.

SwampDonkey

I was with my surveyor and his helper when we did our lines last spring. I brushed with a chainsaw and the helper ribboned the line of site. I returned a week later and blazed the line on my way in and painted on my way out with red paint. The spray paint from cans is only temporary, so I use a brush and 1 gallon can. I did use a spray paint on one line with the surveyor that day. I went up there last week and found that the paint is disintegrating fast, shoulda used from the can. We are selling that lot this spring so its up to the next guy to keep updating the paint on his lines I guess. But knowing him and his work ethic, it won't get done. I paint my lines every 3 years because I have alot of fast growing second growth. I see the neighbor plowed over on me last fall, so this spring I intend to take pictures of the torn up line for future reference. There are evidence trees uprooted by his plow. ;)

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I have never found plow lines or stone walls to be particularly useful in finding line.  In some locales, farmers went right to the line, in others they stayed off of them.  

I did find one survey that followed an old snake fence.  We found piles of rock where the fence had originally been located.  The land had long reverted back to forest and had 36" red oak on it.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Ron:

Different circumstances I suppose down your way. But, up here the line fence, rock wall or cedar rail fence was the line.  Of course there are some properties with fencing all through the woods for their cattle that can't be relied on. You can even see from the orthophoto mapping of our area where the lines are drawn up on the map, they will follow those line fences without exception. Well I guess a couple exceptions could be an amalgamation of adjacent properties or creating subdivisions. Where I find some survey errors is the reference point of the survey. Our area has alot of unbuilt 'Crown Reserved' Roads. These reserves seperate the original landgrants between communities. Sometimes a sevyor makes a mistake and measures from the built highway instead of the 'Crown Reserve'. This happened to us and the neighbor moved in on us and cut 6 acres of prime cedar for free because of this error. Our farm goes clear to the 'Crown Reserve', this survey cut the Northeast corner of the lot short because of an incorrect reference. On the west side of the river here, there are 7 'Crown Reserves' seperating farms and communities which end at the US/Canada border. The communities are: Florenceville,Greenfield,Back Greenfield-Summerfield, Greg Settlement,Knoxford-Listerville, Hartley Settlement-Tracey Mills, and Lower and Upper Royalton.

Different system of surveying up here I guess. Its even different in parts of Quebec, where the land was granted in relation to the Church.

 ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

rebocardo

If you can get it into the woods, a cement filled lolly column makes a great corner marker.

re:bears
One of the easiest way to tell a bear has been around is to look at the ground and watch where you step. No mistaking those piles :-D

I will take a look at the tops of my beech and apple trees next time I am up in ME. Never occured to me the bears might do that.





SwampDonkey

rebo:

We carry the axe for another reason, its to cut and square cedar posts for corners. I shove'r in the ground where the surveyor says X marks the spot. They last a long time but you need to pound them into the ground once in awhile because of frost heaving. ;)

I've got pressure treated 4 foot 4x4 in  my corners, painted red. In the remote areas of the rest of the farm we have cedar posts though.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Corley5

I've driven galvanized highway sign posts in on our corners.  The old cedar corner posts have about had it.  On the lines them selves I've planted pieces of light poles 100ft apart where the cedar posts are falling over.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

SwampDonkey

Corley:

That should be permanent for a long time to come. Wish everyone looked after their lines. The least they could do is brush them out or paint them for visibility.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Scott

 Wrap aluminum foil around marker trees and staple them into place then paint the foil a bright colour. We had one of our lines maked out this way, held out pretty good.

SwampDonkey

Scott:

ummm  ;)

Here's a tootsie roll type question:

How many rolls of aluminum foil does it take to go around a 435 acre lot and then sub-divide a 70 acre lot with it?  errm   ::)  Any left over aluminum foil to spare? ;)

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Stan

I thought they used aluminium foil in Canada.  :P
I may have been born on a turnip truck, but I didn't just fall off.

SwampDonkey

I only use foil on ma sutharn fried chicken  :D ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Scott

 Swamp Donkey, the lot next to ours did thier lines this way. The one that ran next to ours was 500 metres long. I'm not sure if the owner did this or a surveyer but it's been at least ten years since it was put there and seems to be holding up well plus if you don't paint the foil it gives your lines that cool space age/ futuristic look :D

SwampDonkey

Scott

errm ;)

Must be a feller with a lot of time on his hands. I'de do it if I was paid by the hour and supplied with the foil. But alas that type of work is paid on piece-work ($$/meter). Leaving that foil unpainted draws wildlife like curious coons and bear. These animlas have learned that food is wraped sometimes inside.  :D ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Scott

Use Nelson's "survey grade" tree marking paint to mark the lines. It lasts a number of years. Best to use steel stakes for a permanent line though. Routine maintenance of one's property lines should be a recommended practice.
~Ron

Corley5

Adverse Possession comes into play after a time too.  Here in Mi in as little as 7 years if you've treated a piece of property as your own and have maintained it you can own it and there's not much the actual owner can do about it.  Most of the old line fences around here are off by several feet or more but they've been the agreed upon line for almost a hundred years.  So in comes a developer has his new piece of subdivision ground surveyed according to the property description and he gains ground on the farmer next door or so he thinks.  Off to court they go and the judge rules in the farmer's favor because he's farmed right up to the existing line fence just as his father did and that was the line that had been agreed upon with the other property's previous owner.  Judges don't want to involve themselves in what's been the status quo in a neighborhood for ever.  Many surveyors around here survey the existing corners and fencelines and record them as the actual lines.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

SwampDonkey

I've used Nelson's and it only holds up 3 years on my lines, so I went to red Tremclad paint, lasts even longer and costs $22 a gallon. Nelson's is 8 bucks a can.

Up here surveyors have to go by historical evidence, there's no other way unless that evidence is in dispute between landowners. 99.9% of the time, there's no dispute. If there is a dispute I beleive the surveyor has the ruling on behalf of Service New Brunswick. Going to court doesn't really help either side, since the judge is no expert on such matters. Its still the surveyors expertice that will be called upon for a settlement.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Frickman

I agree that a property owner should maintain his lines. Around here few do though. Most of the times I look at timber the landowner has no idea where his lines are, so I require them to have a survey done and to defend the lines in court. The only landowners I've found who usually know where there lines are farmers.

I've found that linseed oil based paint works very well. A good coat of white will last at least ten years.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Engineer

Just a humble chime-in here, since a great deal of my work is surveys of forested lands and lines.  We generally place corner markers of 5/8" rebar, and flag witness trees.  If a corner's in the middle of the woods, we will usually blaze and paint witness trees and indicate size and species on the map.  In most cases, the owner WILL NOT pay to have the lines blazed and painted.  I can't do it for free.

I have had success using cheap floor enamel (oil-base) from any home center or even Wal-Mart.  I told the paint guy to tint it as bright yellow as he could get it, and let me tell you, you could see that line for a quarter mile through the trees.

As far as boundaries are concerned, monuments such as pins, pipes, concrete or stone markers are referenced as corners as long as they are also referenced on a prior survey or deed.  If not, it's our discretion unless there is another overriding factor.  In the case where we have two properties with a fence or stone wall between them, and the deed of X says "bounded by Y" and the deed of Y says "bounded by X", then we use the wall or fence.  If one deed is vague and the other uses metes and bounds to decribe the line, than we use the metes and bounds and ignore the wall or fence (unless it's an agreed-upon boundary by both parties).  So the short answer to any boundary issue is - it depends.  My property is marked by stone walls, wire fence and iron pipes in all corners.  Can't do better than that.

Ron Scott

Swamp,

You must be using Nelson's Econo-spot paint at $8.18/gallon. It is a 2-3 year paint. Nelson's Boundary line paint is a 5-7 year paint at $17.46/gallon.

~Ron

Corley5

The MiDNR uses Nelson Boundary for sale boundary lines as well as property lines.  It's good stuff and last a long time.  The redlines are still visible around some 10+ year old sales  We use the cheaper stuff to mark trees.  The last batch of boundary paint we got had boundary spelled as boundry ::)  Somebody missed that ;D
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

DanG

Maybe you guys can help me with a situation I have.  My south boundary is in dispute. The "traditional" boundary was established 30 years ago by previous owners of both properties. Monuments were in place on all corners when I bought the place. Previous neighbor passed away and his widow sold part of the land to a relative, who then died, and it reverted back to her, then she died, leaving the whole mess to her grand-daughter.(they had a couple of bad years. :-/)  During all this, their place was re-surveyed, by the original surveyor, and he moved the line 13 ft onto my place. Shortly before that, the east neigbors sold out, and the same surveyor re-marked my southeast corner in it's original location. Now, that surveyor has lost his license and left the area, leaving me with nobody to file an appeal with. Neither the neighbor, or I, want to pay for a new survey, and, frankly it isn't bothering either of us. But, it could be a problem, down the road, if either of us sells out.
Any ideas on a recourse? We're talking about 13' along a 1600' boundary, which amounts to less than 1/2 acre. Land value is less than $2000/a, so it isn't worth a whole lot of expense. Both of us value our neighborly relationship more than that, so there won't be a fight unless one of us sells.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

SwampDonkey

Ron

Its log marking paint, probably the difference there.  And its $8.00 per spray can, not per gallon. CDN prices. My Tremclad is good paint, I can find trees spotted over ten year ago with it. But of course depends on the age of the line trees and species. Poplar and fir grow and heal fast, it would be pushing it to expect for than 5 years on them. Better trees would be hardwood, hemlock, red spruce , black spruce and especially white cedar that are slower growing and live the longest. But we have to use what we got available on the lines.

I agree with Engineer about marking the lines. That's what happens in my kneck of the woods. The landowner sometimes doesn't give it much thought about the work involved in brushing, blazing and painting the lines. And 9/10 landowners won't bother to do it themselves. Usually lines are marked only prior to harvest in most cases. I was on a lot today that had pretty sparse ribbons or blazes. With the GPS I did find some evidence, but not enough to do a comfortible reconnaissance job on. I was cruising the lot and had to traverse a field with the GPS also. Geometry was crap this morning but by 10 am I had a solid lock with under 4 PDOP even under thick balsam fir thinning (12 m tall). I couldn't believe the snow depth, its almost nothing. Going to be one DanG dry spring.

Ok, getting away from the topic again ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Frickman

DanG,
If it was me, I'd shake hands with the neighbor and agree to never say anything about it to anyone. If the two of you are in agreement on where the line is, leave it at that. Folks notice anytime a surveyor comes out, and you might open a whole hornets nest of problems if you did something right now. Even if you resurvey it now, down the road someone might contest it and you'd have to do it all again.

I've got a gripe about surveyors, at least some around these parts. A property owner will hire them to find and mark all the corners and flag the lines, and the surveyor will try to do the whole job with one role of flagging tape and a can of spray paint. And he'll use dark blue or green too. He'll mark everything with about one inch of tape or a dot of paint, instead of leaving a long tail of ribbon to see. About a year or so ago I looked at a property that had just been surveyed and I had to hunt half the day for tiny pieces of dark blue ribbon. For the prices they charge they could buy a couple rolls of bright orange ribbon and use some of it. OK, time to get down off the soapbox.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Stan

My longest boundary is with the Forest Service, and they keep it marked pretty good. That makes me happy cause I can't stand on the side of that hill.  :-/
I may have been born on a turnip truck, but I didn't just fall off.

Josh Walton

Dan G. Talk to a land Surveyor and see if they do boundary line agreements. In some locales this is common and in others unheard of. Basicaly you and your neighbor agree to the disputed line and put it in writing. It would be worth a call to find out. Most of the frustration about poor surveys, at least on the first page seem to relate to line maintenance. In my area, I wouldn't consider this a primary job of a surveyor unless a client speciffically asks for it. I need to qualify that statement because customs and survey requirements vary so differently from locale to locale. The orginator of this post staed he couldn't find any line evidence from a survey done in 1982. That survey is 22 years old , paint fades, tree die and rot and deer eat flagging, most seasoned party chiefs would have trouble finding clues and thats what there trained to do. The survey MUST "look good on paper" because that is how a survey is documented. The next surveyor can use the 1982 survey and find your lines. Like in your profession, a corner or line is determined by reviewing the facts and making an educated opinon. Every surveyor has an opinon and often they differ even with the same measurements. Hope this helps.

Sawyerfortyish

I went to look at a tract of timber that the property owner had surveyed 2 years earlier. We couldn't make head or tails out of the survey couldn't find any markers.So my brother has a friend that surveys for the state take a look at it. First words out of his mouth was this survey ain't worth the paper it wrote on it does't close. He set up some instrument on this survey map measured angles and distance. He said that all surveys will come around in some shape back to the starting point on paper. This one didn't if you used the angles and measurments written on the paper they wouldn't come togeather. The landowner had to go back to the surveyer he used and get him to correct the map. After that we were able to locate all the lines . Man i'm sure glade i got another surveyer involved the lines were nowhere near where the owner thought they were but he knows now.

jrdwyer

As a forester, I don't expect property lines to be readily visible in the woods 20 years after a survey. Evidence of past cutting yes, but flagging or wood stakes or painted trees, no. But I get very frustrated when surveyed corners are not documented in such a way as to be found later. A surveyor who references a historical stone in the woods as a corner but does not place a steel pin or steel stake next to it or does not use bearing trees adjacent to the corner for reference is doing the landowner a very minimal service.

In this specific survey, the distance and bearing to the NE stone corner (in question) was only calculated in one direction, from a pin in the NW corner. But alas, the NW pin is in a thick grown-up field of young trees and briars and I could not find it even using a metal detector. If it's there, its skinny rebar below the surface with no above ground marker next to it. The other direction to the NW corner simply listed the historical (deed) information for distance and bearing to a documented section center stone. The Forest Service thought enough of this section center stone to reference it with an aluminum bearing tree marker 3 years prior to the 1982 survey. Still there and still ledgible. Anyway, it sure makes me wonder what I would fine if I went out with a ProMark2 GPS and checked the corners myself. But $5K is a little out of my budget right now.

Hats off to the surveyors and Forest Service employees who reference their corners so that those of us who come later can find them without using a total station.

SwampDonkey

jrdwyer:

You don't need a $5000 GPS to find lines and corners. I use a $1800 GPS ( with vertex averaging) to find lines and I download GIS shapefiles onto it to help me search. Its not even a DGPS and I find marks in the woods where my GPS says they are. Sometimes I'll come across a bad GIS map, its not the GPS's fault. And I know the map is wrong because of the evidence in the field such as road intersections, stream crossings and cut boundaries. There are 2 sources of the data, one from DNRE (with roads, stand boundaries, streams, silviculture, power lines layers.. etc) and one from Service NB (property lines layer and highway layer). :) Thales Navigation's Mobile Mapper with its Office software may be an option for you. You can read some literature on it at my site. Its a 12 channel WAAS receiver.

http://www.klondikekonsulting.com/Website/gps.htm

and scroll to the bottom and there are links under special interest.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

OneWithWood

Tuesday I walked my property with the district forester and a state biologists in preparation for a field day planned sometime this fall.  Both gentlemen expressed accolades for the way my property lines are marked.  The steel fence posts with 2" pvc slid over the posts are easly visible.  The white posts really stick out in the woods and I have painted the tops of the posts with flourescent pink marking paint for increased visibilty when the leaves are out.  The corners are identified as corners.  My classified wildlife, classifed forest and Tree Farm System signs are attached to each post also.  This method of marking lines after a survey has been suggested to other land owners by the district forester.  
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

jrdwyer

SwampDonkey,

Thanks for the link to your website. A lot of good information. The rugged Panasonic handheld looks like a decent field computer. Does its GPS unit receive well under the trees without a seperate antenna? And does Microsoft Pocket PC work better than the old Windows CE? I am upgrading my equipment right now so this is timely.

SwampDonkey

jtdwyer:

I use the Panasonic GPS offered by Panasonic Canada (I'm sure they have it in US also). I use it under canopy which is up to 10 meters tall with foliage. In fall and winter you can use the unit in mature hardwood stands. Cedar stands are difficult to maintain a good fix though.This is the case even for Trimble's units. There is no antenae option on the Panasonic gps module.  But Sokkia.com has a WAAS enabled embedded GPS  option you get installed in your Panasonic unit, it has an antena port. Its rather expensive for a WAAS reciever though. Purchase the Panasonic HPC with their GPS  from Sokkia. I'd recommend Thales Mobile Mapper unless you want a WinCE device to use for collecting cruise or site data. I beleive it has an antenna port also.  It also comes with its own desktop software. With the Panasonic option you'll need to purchase ArcPAd from ersi.com (download a full working demo for both the desktop and WinCE unit - 30 day trial) or Sokkia's own mobile GIS software. Arcpad will also work with the Sokkia GPS and its highly recommended.

Pocket PC and WinCE are different OS's, they even look different on the screen. WinCE looks like the screen on your desktop computer. I've never encountered any problems with the WINCE OS and I've never used a PocketPC. Both use stylus pointers, but the Panasonic unit is the only ruggedized HPC with a QWERTY keyboard. There is alot more software for Pocket PC though. But all mobile GIS programs work on WinCE devices. I use SysWare's VisualCE and ReportCE for WinCE to make database forms for data collection and to synchronize to the desktop PC database. I don't think you can get a ruggedized PocketPC yet, although you can buy cases. These cases however do not accomodate the GPS module which sticks out of the CF slot. The Panasonic or the Trimble units are ruggedized to keep out moisture and dust, but not submersible. Mobile Mapper is submersible to 30 meters I think, but it uses a  proprietory OS

I am working on a pdf file of my services and it includes some screen shots of my Visual CE forms and desktop database forms I use for collecting cruise data and site data for management plans. Check my homepage in about a week for a draft copy. It'll be near the middle of the page with a clickeable link. It will contain alot of the content off my website but in one package with a few extra bits of info throughout.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Darly

It is better to have your lines marked well; but you cannot control what your predecessors in title did. In Florida, a fence line or a stand of timber can take precedence over a survey; as surveying techniques change, many Courts are reluctant to alter lines every few years.
DJC

DanG

Thanks to all of you who addressed my problem, which doesn't seem to really be a problem, at all.  The original iron stake is still on the fence line...I just couldn't find it among the weeds, last summer. The "new" line was only marked with some flagging on the fence, and a wooden stake. I think the "problem" was the result of a road widening project, some 14 years ago. The neighbor, whose property fronts on the highway, which was a little narrow dirt road, before, probably lost some footage, and the "surveyors" were apparently trying to recover his loss by encroaching on my footage. The wooden stake, and the flagging on the fence have been removed, and I DIDN'T do it, and the neighbor didn't do it, so the surveyors must have reviewed and corrected their work. :)

Welcome to the new faces that have showed up on this thread with some solid advice. It is appreciated, and I hope y'all stick around. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Scott

 We had one of our lines done about 16 years ago after some of our land was illegally cut. Up until now this line was really neglected. the past couple weeks i've been beating my way through the fir and spruce regrowth trying to find any remaining markers or sections of line. Anyone who has a line thats going down hill, get out there and fix it up while you can still find it! It'll save you a lot of trouble later on.

Ron Scott

Amen! to that. Once you have your lines surveyed, keep them maintained so you don't have to pay to have the surveyor come out and resurvey them again for you.  :-[

It's surprising how many forest landowners let their property lines go unmaintained to the point where they have difficulty finding them again.
~Ron

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