A way to remove stuck countersunk hex (allen) head bolts from Lucas 618 Sawmill

[fishpharmer]

A few days ago I had some trouble removing the circular blade from the Lucas 618 sawmill.  Four countersunk hex (allen) head bolts hold the blade on the driveshaft hub.  The hub bolt holes are threaded with a locknut on the backside. 

Three bolts were easy to remove with the 5 mm allen wrench.  One was stuck (rust) and wouldn't come out by hand, even after soaking the back (nut) side with penetrating oil for a few hours.  I ended up stripping it out. 


Now what?  I Drove to town and got a small easy out. That only made it worse, didn't budge.  The nut was easy to remove from the backside of stuck bolt.  The bolt wouldn't even break loose with vice grips attached to the threaded backside.


At that point, I was tempted to heat the hub with a torch. Not wanting to damage gearbox, hub or blade, instead, I welded a lag screw to the stripped bolt.  To keep from welding bolt to hub threads, the lag screw was held in place with the ground clamp and tacked on.


Finally, after putting a wrench on the lag bolt head, the blade bolt was easily removed.  There's probably a better way, like not stripping the bolt to start with :-[

It worked for me.  Hopefully this will help someone with a similar problem. 8)

[beenthere]

Sounds like you didn't have any Blue Creeper.  :

[customsawyer]

Where there is a will there is a way. ;) 

[terrifictimbersllc]

Your solution is inspiring. Apparently not the end of the world.
Here's my plan.
1. Blue  Creeper every time on/off.
2. Dig out sawdust in socket with small screwdriver before trying to remove bolt.
3. New Bolts and allen wrench often.
4. New bolt often.
5. Not too tight.
6. New bolt and Blue Creeper often.
7. Give thanks whenever one can loosen them.
8. Give thanks again and sprinkle Blue Creeper.
9. Give thanks for Blue Creeper.

p.s. my mill blade has 8 of these bolts

[drobertson]

where the is a will there is a way! amen!. the heat is what did the trick, I have battled many a flat heads that are froze up, minimal heat around the outside of the countersink usually works, the best solution is the copper anti seize when re-installing.

[slider]

We use a product called never sease ,spell.NAPA sells it also lock tight makes it,We use it on anything that is going to come back apart .I have been using it for 30 years and it works.It's not cheap but worth it when you have rust or moisture.Also on a broken stud or bolt i like to first weld a flat washer to it then weld a nut to that then while it's still hot rock it back and forth.glad you got it out.  al

[bandmiller2]

There are several actions you can take to up your odds of removal.Take a flat punch and give the screw a good sharp rap.Dip the end of the allen wrench in valve grinding compound and drive to bottom of hex hole.If the wrench has buggered the hole get the next size allen wrench, usally metric,and carefully grind a slight taper on each of the flats,drive on and pray. Easy-outs are a cruel hoax,there not easy and won't get anything out. Frank C.

[fishpharmer]

Thanks for all the advice and comments, I usually do things the hard way.

My friend Furby directed me to a ff post that addressed the Lucas blade bolts...
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60602.msg924779.html#msg924779

Wish I read it earlier.

[metalspinner]

I have a cordless dewalt drill driver that "hammers" while driving or unscrewing.  I wonder if that could have helped?

[fishpharmer]

Probably that and a torx bit would have done it.

[drobertson]

flat heads almost weld solid, for whatever reason, just a larger contact area, I just wish they took a bigger size wrench, they are always a pain, anti sease is about the only good answer.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

I use a small Cold Chisel on them when they are stripped out like that or bound up I carry one in the tool box afew good taps and its free  ;)

Regards Chris

[r.man]

This is like women and straight or curly hair. One company is selling us both a product to make threads not hold as well and another to make them hold better. Makes you wonder if we have become stuck in a rut and should have found a better way to hold things together.

[rmack]

where the is a will there is a way! amen!. the heat is what did the trick, I have battled many a flat heads that are froze up, minimal heat around the outside of the countersink usually works, the best solution is the copper anti seize when re-installing.

I agree 100%. Heat is one of the handiest tools a millwright will ever have. Fishpharmer put a new head on the capscrew, and used heat to break the rust bond at the same time. good job 8)

[Satamax]

Looking at this




First of all, i would have tried two "counternuts" against each other and trying to screw. Or may be an acorn nut  Or may be two nuts welded and the second one plugged with metal.

[Nomad]

Looking at this




First of all, i would have tried two "counternuts" against each other and trying to screw.

     Yup.

[woodyone.john]

with my peterson i  drilled 3mm [1/8"] countersink into near the perimeter of the head and installed the screws with liberal anti seize. when it came to getting the out a centre punch rap would back them off sufficient to easily undo them with  the allen key. cheers john 8)

[fishpharmer]

Lot's of great suggestions.  Always heard, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Thanks everyone, these methods help everyone here. 8)

[Al_Smith]

An once of prevention is always worth more than a pound of cure .That little dab of Never Seeze is the answer .

You have to remember a grade 8 bolt is high carbon steel. Once it rusts tight as they do weather it's an allen head or Torx it's going to be a real job to back it out .Plus anything running in an environment of sawmill related items is subjected to the acidic conditions present in the saw dust which makes matters worse .

If you folks think those little blade bolts are a chore should try drilling out chipper knife bolts somone didn't never seeze .'tain't no picnic .

[Al_Smith]

Now a little blurb on grade 8 bolts .First they are hard as twice hammered hell .A high speed steel drill bit might only drill out a small amount before it dulls out and running a dull drill only makes the steel harder .

The only thing I've ever found that will drill out a grade 8 is solid carbide which cost a fortune .Now as luck would have it I'm fortunate enough to able to get discarded bits from work that don't meet standards so I have plenty on hand .

No matter what is used to drill out a bolt do not over heat the steel .If the bit is not pulling a chip either resharpen or get another bit .Use some type of coolant ,WD -40 "cool tool" "tap magic " water from a mist bottle  if nothing else .Last but not least ,Never Seeze on reassembley .

[tjhammer]

it seems like every time I change blades I always have one that don't want to come out,I use a impact from the start lots of never seeze if the impact rounds the hole I use a air hammer and chisel to the out side edge of the bolt I don't have nuts on my saw bolts so I can't get ahold of the back side,I change bolts when I change saws,with out never seeze they are almost imposible to remove
tj                                 

[fishpharmer]

TJ, did you make your own blade hub?  And do you use Lucas blades, thinking you made your mill?

[tjhammer]

hello fishpharmer I made the arbor out of a 2 in truck axel I think the carbon in the axel was higher then the arbor bolts,rust was a big factor in the arbor,didn't have to worry about it breaking it was mounted like a jack shaft with two bearing,I built the arbor to a lucas saw,I sold the saw a while back I have another saw now,I wished I would have built a 10 in saw
tj






                                                 

[sigidi]

Pleased ya got it out Fish, bit of a bummer ya didn't see the thread before, but its cool there are lots of options available, good onya mate  ;D

[tjhammer]

fishpharmer I changed out my saw blade yesterday,its a lucas sawblade I rounded out all 5 allen head bolts,I had a liberal amount of never seeze on them,I drove a #5 metric allen into a 1/16 allen hole and finally they come out,is theitr a specific torque for the blade bolts?I had a lucas saw blade on and had only sawed 2 pines with it, should the bolts always be this hard to removed, is their a difference between a metric and usa bolt other than thread pitch,I'm going to try torque heads this time to see if they do any better, I also noticed their's a difference in blade thickness I had my lucas blades re hammered for a slower rpm,mine runs around 2000 +/-
tj

[sigidi]

TJ, dunno if the info is 100% transferable from a Lucas to your machine, but when I do up the blade bolts I usually have my cordless drill and swiss army pocket knife, I use the corkscrew in the head to clear out all the built up sawdust, before goin anywhere near it with the allen keys. When I do the bolts up, my cordles has 24 torque settings on it so I dial the torque to 14 out of the 24 and I use the 2nd gear in the gearbox (not the high torque first gear) over the 10 years of Lucas milling I havent had a bolt come out when done up this way

[tjhammer]

sigidi I always like you clean out the allen head and when installing I tighten the bolts down sugg to squeeze out the never seeze and then retighten with a 3/8 ratchet,when I first started sawing that spinning blade scared the bejesus out me, I mite have tighten them a little to tight but now I just snug them, maybe a little tighter than snug
tj

[Ianab]

I only even tighten them with a pocket hex wrench, snug them down well, but not really leaning on them. The lock nut on the back is your insurance against them working loose. You can snug that down properly with a ring spanner, and it will come loose the same way.

Ditto on the copper anti-seize of whatever flavour you can buy locally.

Ian

[LeeB]

ring spanner = box end wrench.

[fstedy]

Sometimes whatever you do you will get stuck screws or bolts. You can drill it out to the minor diameter of the screw with a left hand dril bitl. Works like a charm. The heat from drilling and removing most of the metal from the screw body releives the tension and when the drill starts to break thru it just  winds it right out. If its hardened material drill almost thru with carbide then finish with high speed left hand drill.

[bandmiller2]

I don't own a swinger,but have had simular problems with the countersunk bolts holding on hay baler knives.I don't think its the threads but rather the tapered head causing the problems.The big thing is not rounding out the hex.A flat punch and a sharp hammer rap to the head,very quick heat to the head,but not enough to soften it.Fully engauged good hex wrench if that won't do it your scrawed [past tense for screwed].I am surprised never seeze doesn't help much.Possibly try paste wax,and clean the threads with the propper tap before installation. Frank C.

[Al_Smith]

The very best anti galling stuff I've ever used was a product called "lead pate " but I'd imagine it's no longer available because of the lead content .

There are different grades of Never Seeze plus Lubriplate makes several products .

You can probabley gain more "purchase " with a Torx head flat head screw than with a socket head .The problem with a socket head as per size of bolt is they are always one wrench size down from a standard Allen head cap screw .

Whatever design of the fastener you'll do a lot better if you take the time to make certain the hole is free of all debres that would prevent you from getting the tool in full depth  and use a tool with good crisp edges weather allen head or Torx .Good grade too none of of those Chinese two dollar a dozen specials .Hollow Chrome a divison of Allen probabley makes one of the better grades of socket head wrenchs .

Another good plan which few seldom do with fasteners that have tendency to gall up is simpley replace them with new ones .Might cost a buck or two but the frustration it relieves is more than worth it .

[KnotBB]

Been there done, something (slightly) different.

Most every thing has been covered.

Make sure the allen holes are clean before you start to be able seat the allen wrench all the way.

Don't over tighten.  The length of the factory allen wrench can provide plenty of torque without an extension. Too much as a matter of fact.  You're trying to seat the taper, not clamp the saw blade.  Make sure the hub and blade contact area are clean before assembly.  If you spin the allen wrench figure on replacing the screw (and it is a screw not a bolt!)

Anti seize grease grease on threads and taper of the screw. (It's in the book). Just like that used on O2 sensors.

Use a hand impact screw driver on really tight ones.  They work wonders for tight screws http://www.harborfreight.com/impact-screwdriver-set-with-case-37530.html  and a metric allen socket from NAPA or your favorite tool.  supplier that fits the driver, 3/8"?

The driver works two ways.  It gives a "shock" to the screw which all by it's self can loosen it and provides just a little twist at the time of impact and can't pop out and round the threads. 

[logboy]

While I was gone on a deployment for a couple years the blade on my 827 rusted to the head. Had to heat it up to get the bolts out. The blade had to be sent in for hammering because it wobbled afterwards. I give the head an ample coating of anti-seize between blade changes now.

[fishpharmer]

Heating a perfectly fine blade was a concern of mine.  Haven't reinstalled it yet, mill's now in slabber mode.

I appreciate all the input.

[moth222]

 

  I owned a Lucas mill many years ago and sold it due to lack of time. I have recently borrowed one from a neighbour (he recently bought it second hand). The person he bought it off had kept it outdoors for some time and I was unable to remove two of the blade bolts. I searched for and found this forum, looking for help, and now joined up. I tried all advice and could not move the bolts. Eventually, I drilled 4 holes into the head of each bolt (enough to position a punch without slipping) and hit the punch to move the bolt counter clockwise. Success

[schmism]

Here's what always gets me.    If your going to go the weld a nut on method (a fine method for stuck countersunk fasteners)  might as well save the hastle of the welder and try heat first.   After all, you got the nut red hot (hot enough to melt the surface metal eg weld)  so ....

was it the heat from the weld,  or the the ability to put a proper wrench on it that got the screw out?

I often find that after the welding on of a nut or bolt, the torque required to remove the fastener is half or less what i was innitally putting on it to start with.  (leading to the idea that it was the heat of the weld that did you more a favor than having the new bolt head)

[beenthere]

moth222
Welcome to the Forestry Forum. 
Wish that was a clear pic of your job.

Once watched a guy strip a motor block of all studs and bolts getting it ready to put in a steam cleaner. He went quickly around the block with a torch heating the bolts or studs and then touched a candle to them (partly to cool I suspect and the melted candle wax sucked down into the threads). He just had a pair of vicegrips and turned everything out with no appreciable effort at all. Was amazing to watch.

But another good use of the BlueCreeper.. too bad everyone doesn't have their own bottle to save a lot of grief.

[Chuck White]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, moth222.

[Gasawyer]

Never seez works wonderful after you get the bolts out the first time. Had to take 618 blade off after 3yrs of use and was never a problem to loosen bolts. The mill was being used to put saw marks in finished wood that is why long run time without removal.

[Seaman]

I use a 5mm socket and ratchet, rather than Allen wrench, seems a lot easier to work with.
I also do not overtighten bolts, but snug nuts pretty good. All good answers on here, I tend to change back and forth between slabber and blade that nothing has time to rust ! :D
Also, go ahead and keep a new set of hardware in your yellow box ALL the time ! ;)

Frank