If you had to provide just 1 piece of advice & 1 warning to a Land Owner before having his property logged, what would they be?
Seek a trustworthy and experienced forester.
Would you sell your grandmother's prized jewels to some pawn shop without consulting an expert in the field first...? Hopefully not.
Have a realistic understanding of how your property will look when the logging is done. When you decide which logger you will use check out a few of his past jobs. Your property will look the same. That is, unless you willing to pay extra for the clean up job.
If the property is mortgaged, make sure it is even an option, would be the first thing.
Being a logger we've worked for different forestry forms that required us to not clean up or add material into the site when a land owner wants just the opposite. I'd shop foresters check out their past and get in touch with the association of loggers of your state between all of the above you can make a good choice.
As said, get a Forester and don't try to do it yourself. Don't just get any forester. There are good and bad. You want one that is working for your interests, not someone else. Get references. A forester will more than pay for themselves in the long run.
Know where your property lines are.
Go to other jobs and see what they have done.
I have seen some jobs that the landowners don't like. It won't look like a park after it's done.
Than I've seen jobs that was a wreck and the landowner was happy with the job.
Go to tennessee timber consultants, top right, click the 3 lines to get the drop down menu, click resources, then scroll down to the woodland owners forestry guide. It is epic.
If i had to just say one thing, it would be not to call a logger until you can explain to a stranger what "high grading" is.
Nature can fix a clearcut or a rutty mudhole or a pile of messy tops. But it really cant fix high grading.
Regarding above mentioned comments about high grading you think a clear cut is more desirable than harvesting mature timber. You are everything that is wrong with this business.
You better be careful there Abethetenacious on the way you direct yourself to your fellow members. Your tenure here could be minuscule. You may have no idea what was intended by the comment. I can think of several times a clear cut is beneficial depending on intent and species (aspen or jackpine for example). And as to high grading, the comment is right there too. Sometimes it's better to start over then try to undo what years of high grading has done to a timber stand. You are left with a low or no value stand that may not have any value, even to wildlife. It all depends on the situation.
I second the recommendation to get a good forester. The problem can be telling. good one from a bad one if you don't know much about the subject.
I see you are in NY. Two good organizations to check out that can help you educate yourself and/or make recommendations on how to find a good forester in your area:
NY Master Forest Owners (https://blogs.cornell.edu/ccemfo/) program
and the New York Forest Owners Association (http://www.nyfoa.org/)
I'd start with the MFO. They have a group of trained volunteers that will arrange a site visit to walk your land with you and start you off in the right direction.
Have a plan before you get started. Either from the private consulting forester or from a state forestry agency ( if the landowner isn't knowledgeable on harvesting timber and timber management). You need to know your objectives and the end result your after before contacting a logger. Timber is a long term investment that can be messed up quickly and it will take a long time to correct poor management decisions.
Quote from: Abethetenacious on December 09, 2017, 07:43:02 PM
Regarding above mentioned comments about high grading you think a clear cut is more desirable than harvesting mature timber. You are everything that is wrong with this business.
You ever seen a parcel thats had 3 successive high gradings? Youre better off with a hayfield than a patch of kudzu growing up trees that look like spiral staircases and wont ever produce a tie log.
I do a lot of TSI. Which basically means cutting down culls that the "pro loggers" should have when they cut 20 yrs ago. Wasted years.
In regards to Jeff threatened by the 1st amendment much. I expect that from the snow flake crowd. By the way you need posters more than I need you.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Unless Jeff is in Congress, that doesn't apply.
Quote from: Abethetenacious on December 09, 2017, 10:41:21 PM
In regards to Jeff threatened by the 1st amendment much. I expect that from the snow flake crowd. By the way you need posters more than I need you.
Troll
Quote from: Abethetenacious on December 09, 2017, 10:41:21 PM
In regards to Jeff threatened by the 1st amendment much. I expect that from the snow flake crowd. By the way you need posters more than I need you.
This is a privately run site, and Jeff calls the shots. If you knew anything about the first amendment, you'd know there is nothing in it that requires someone to let you come into their house and spout off or be insulting.
There are lots of places you can go if all you want to do is be obnoxious. The way Jeff and the admins run this site is a big part of why many of us are here. It's like a gathering of family and friends: it's OK to disagree and to present your point of view with conviction, but you need to do it respectfully. (It also helps if you know what you are talking about, or at least admit when you are wrong.)
WOW, I doubt any site needs posters as bad as you seem to think.
I think when the word"clear cut"is offensive to a person,they might be on the wrong forum. Because any Logger would know,it's the best method in some situations.
I think this thread has encouraged me to engage a forester in my quest of improving my forest.
I have no specific need/reason to cut at this point, but I do wish to improve the timber growing there, particularly some help/ideas in order to help the better trees prosper and get rid of some of the scraggle and thickets that prevail amongst the lower forrest.
DID HE CALL ME A SNOWFLAKE?? BAHAHHA :D :D :D BAHAHA!!! :D :D :D
Doesn't it snow in Missouri, too?
Quote from: WDH on December 10, 2017, 08:00:34 AM
Doesn't it snow in Missouri, too?
Did you mean Michigan?
No, he meant Mo, as that's where our cheeky 1st amendment warrior is from.
On a positive note yes I have seen a tract of timber survive 3 cuttings. In fact that was all that was ever harvested on that patch.best timber I ever cut, I'm talking walnut 100+ inches.there were 6 that big. And the white oak, there are guys I used to work with that won't talk to me anymore because I sent them pictures of the white oak. And by the way it's been 5years and we're gonna cut some more next week
You are not listening. 3 cuttings of proper management versus 3 high grade cuttings are 2 totally different things.
Cheeky. That's funny I'm glad to know you r tough enough not to kick me off the forum, for a difference of opinion. And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.
Quote from: PA_Walnut on December 10, 2017, 07:18:03 AM
I think this thread has encouraged me to engage a forester in my quest of improving my forest.
I have no specific need/reason to cut at this point, but I do wish to improve the timber growing there
So far, a chainsaw is the best fertilizer i have encountered.
Quote from: Abethetenacious on December 10, 2017, 08:37:13 AM
Cheeky. That's funny I'm glad to know you r tough enough not to kick me off the forum, for a difference of opinion. And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.
I don't kick off for a difference of opinion. I kick off for attitude and the way you treat other members. And the worst thing you can say to me here, in my house, is that you have freedom of speech here. As long as one is respectful of our rules and our members, there is a lot of latitude.
Me thinks we be talking about the same thing.but due to differences in geography and vernacular we are butting heads.i believe responsible forestry management lead's to a sustainable forest.
Quote from: Abethetenacious on December 10, 2017, 08:37:13 AM
And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.
Me thinks we don't have a clue about what you are saying. ::)
Don't take advice from me I'm conflicted, I grew up in Florida and live in Missouri.
Pics to follow
Conflicted, confused or a bit too hip for our understanding. ???
Quote from: Abethetenacious on December 10, 2017, 11:03:37 AM
Me thinks we be talking about the same thing.but due to differences in geography and vernacular we are butting heads.i believe responsible forestry management lead's to a sustainable forest.
Yes, but high-grading is not exacty the poster child for responsible forestry, and as others have noted, Clear Cuts are not necessarily a bad thing - the treatment has been abused in some cases, and when it is, it certainly makes for a dramatic photo op. However, as others have noted, there are situations where that is what is called for. It could be something to reach a silvicultural objective, or around here it's often done for wildlife habitat (creating an opening for early successional growth).
I agree with Jeff, clear cuts can be a healthy choice. High grading leads to trouble. Clear cuts doesn't mean the whole forest needs leveled, just the troubled areas or plantation sections, etc. It all depends on the variables.
I've seen "high grading" defined as:
Cutting trees with the highest value and leaving those with lower value, often diseased or malformed trees, is referred to as high grading. It is sometimes called selective logging, and confused with selection cutting, the practice of managing stands by harvesting a proportion of trees.
Selection cutting and a forester developed plan is prolly what the OP is looking for.
This Canadian is covered in snowflakes, and enjoying this lil'bit of drama.
Wow! Super helpful posts guys. Even the troll served a purpose in bringing out a dynamic I wouldn't have thought through otherwise.
Getting a proper appraisal and plan from a forester seems like the proper approach but I'm curious if foresters will work a detailed plan for the small size of my tract (roughly 17 acres). It seems from my reading, they are involved on very large projects...mine is failry small, no?
If you cull all the tall folks every 20 years, soon youll have a 5ft population left behind breeding in perpetuity. Thats high grading and you wont live long enough to see nature repair it.
If A is from Missouri, yes, he could cut 3 times and not hurt the hardwood/walnut on a tract. It is called selective harvest and a few trees of the size he mentioned is a significant harvest. I worked with some of the big hardwoods in Mo, and that is not unusual. Used to be a place called Pioneer Forest that was in the big hardwood business, a few trees an acre was significant for them.
Here they like to dress it up by calling it "diameter limit." Naturally the magic diameter is anything the mill will buy which is 12" so we are gonna "select cut on a 12" diameter limit." Everything 12+ goes.
If you do this a few times you are left with only trees that are old and stunted and small. I cut many a 90yr old 10" white oak this year. If they get trapped in the shade of a dominant canopy hog they just kinda stall out and age. 1/16" growth rings and dark chocolate heartwood.
It wasnt as apparent to me until id delivered firewood to a few small residential lots with huge absolutely prime straight oaks, 60' of 4SC. Awe inspiring timber just a mile or two from a sea of short branchy pulp forests of the same species in the same soil map. I start looking into the ownership history and the common denominator is a company that either did or didnt own it. The ones who have owned nearly all the acres on this plateau at one time or another, going back over a century.
Cliff notes: high grading sucks.
Finally someone I can relate to. Mason Dixon line, apples+ oranges,all that jazz. Also I'm a troll now, I do this for a living
Quote from: mike_belben on December 10, 2017, 04:34:54 PM
Here they like to dress it up by calling it "diameter limit." Naturally the magic diameter is anything the mill will buy which is 12" so we are gonna "select cut on a 12" diameter limit." Everything 12+ goes.
If you do this a few times you are left with only trees that are old and stunted and small.
A true diameter limit cut removes ALL trees over a certain diameter even the junk so you aren't "high grading" you are just choosing a different management style. So given the proper rotation length (stand harvested with a diameter limit cut has a much much longer harvest interval) it isn't the worst thing. I can show you stands that were D limit cut and given 60+ years to grow and they look about the same as stands that were cut every 10 years and thinned throughout the D range.
popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley
I knew an interesting fella that bought timer at what he called "12 and 12." That was 12" from the ground and min. 12" dia. That applies only to valuable timber. The low grade stuff he left standing.
Well in reguards to high grading, here in Newfoundland we had to give it up and moved to clear cutting all stands of timber. All areas are different and what works in one place won't work somewhere else. When we select cut it damaged the residual trees to where they would rot and lose their commercial value. Now that we clear cut in 50 years a stand can be harvested again and get the most value out of it.
All timber types are different, but shade intolerant species do best in clear cuts. For planting pine or natural regeneration of yellow poplar, we clear cut. We use shelterwood harvest in oak, and have to be careful that they don't turn into high grades. If all of the good trees are cut, and you only leave undesirable species, then that is where your seed source for the next generation of trees comes from.
I agree with coxy... but also why does basically everyone say to go with a forester?? are ALL loggers crooks?? I sure don't think I am and I buy a lot of timber with out a forester holding my hand AND I take great offense if anyone thinks I'm hosing the landowner. I treat EVERY woods and landowner as if it were mine and pay as much as I can and still make some money. I know some loggers are bad apples but there are still some good ones in the bushel. I have noticed on this forum sometimes loggers are on the same plane as the tax collectors were in biblical times. in a lot of coffee shops around here it is that way with people who have heard old stories that may or may not be true about loggers that may have been dead for years, but I would expect on a forestry AND logging forum it might be a little more balanced. for instance our STATE foresters RARELY ever go out and see a sale they marked get harvested. if they would they might learn a little (or a lot). just because a logger didn't graduate from a fancy university doesn't mean much at all in MY OPINION. also no 2 foresters are going to look at the same tree/stand/tract the same. that much I do know cause I work with 5ish foresters on a regular basis (when I'm not apparently ruining woods on a private basis). sorry to vent but that's MY OPINIONS
If a clear cut is the best scenario, can you still call yourself a Logger? I have never run into a more entrenched mindset, but hey I live in the hardwoods Mecca. What would I know, btw all This over 17 acres.
OH Logger: I don't think anyone is saying all loggers are evil or that all foresters are good. In my experience, the % of dishonest slimeballs is independent of their profession. There are good and bad in every profession. The trick is in figuring out which is which.
There are plenty of good loggers out there. The trouble is if your a landowner that knows next to nothing about forestry how do you know a good one from a bad one? The same could be said for foresters but at some point you have to put some trust in somebody and somebody who isn't taking a cut of the profits is usually easier to trust.
OH logger, are you interested in working with a landowner that has no intentions of EVER cutting his timber in your life time but wants to manage it for wildlife or other purposes other than timber. Are you educated in all resources that make up that owners forest land and willing to trade your time with an owner that wants to sell you timber for the one that does not? A forester is hired to manage the forest or educate the owner on how to do it., not necessarily to cut it. If the time come to cut it, he will know many many loggers and know many markets. If the owner calls a logger, there he is. If he calls a forester, there he is. Its his choice. I've been in the Forest Products business my entire working life, in the mill in the woods, now owning my own land, not much more than mentioned here. In all honesty, there is not a logger in the world, no matter how honest, and I've known some great ones, that I would call first, so it has nothing to do with honesty, it has to do with options and decision making for the future.
I think you just threw every logger under the bus, I should know I lived in one for over 3 years. I could not walk for 3.5 months. I came back from life altering injuries to be lumped in with people whom I call brothers, but you deem incompetent. And I highlight, there is no Logger you would call 1st!!!!!!!! This from the founder of the forestry forum. I would like to add, all this over 17 acres that I doubt are commercially viable.
You are one step from going away. Knock it the hell off. I never threw anyone under any bus. You are turning out to be a real jerk I do not want in my house. Last time. Make the choice.
ah, never mind. I make the choices around here. Yer gone.
I think you missed his point entirely Abethetenacious, and are ascribing motives to someone who you don't yet know or understand.. The reason he would not call a logger first is because he would not yet have made the decision to log nor decided what his goals are for the property. You call a forester to help guide you through your decision-making process. IF the decision is to log, THAT's when you call a logger.
I don't call the excavator to dig the foundation for a house until I have a plan for what I want to build. I also don't call the excavator to help me decide what I wanted or to design the house. That doesn't mean I don't like or respect excavators, it just means I'm not yet to the point where I need their expertise. When it does come time to dig the foundation, I'm going to do my best to hire a good excavator, and you can bet that if he/she has suggestions for tweaks to make to make things work better or go more smoothly, I'm going to give a good listen.
A forester will cover a loggers butt too. I did a job once upon a time and I wanted the landowner to have a forester mark the timber, oversee etc because it was part of a conservation plan. There was $$$ in the program for a forester but he didn't want to pay the % the forester wanted. There was more money to be had in his pocket that way. So I cut his trees the way I'd have cut my own and he wasn't happy with what I did. He really didn't like it when he wanted ME to rent a chipper and clean up the tops ALONG his trails at MY expense and I told him I was a logger not a landscaper. The tops had already been lopped flat. There were three more units that could have been cut. It was part of an NRCS conservation program plan. He never got the rest cut and didn't get the payment because the plan wasn't completed. The NRCS rep told me later I'd done a good job, he has a forestry background, and that it was Mrs. Landowner who really didn't like what a woods looked like after a harvest. As a logger I like having an independent forester looking over my shoulder and having my back. What I don't like is a forester that a pimps a logger or vice versa.
OH LOGGER I don't think anyone on this forum has said loggers are dishonest, and if I gave that impression by recommending a forester that is not my intention. I have people that I consider friends and close family that are loggers.
I'm not a forester, but I work for a state forestry agency that advises landowners on managing timber. I look at a lot of timber annually and give recommendations. My goal is similar to yours as I look at every property as if it's mine and every landowner needing advice as if they were in my family.
When I look at a tract, I explain hiring a consulting forester or working directly with a logger. I think both options work, but it just depends on a landowners comfort level, knowledge and time they have. When I recommend a consulting forester, it's not that I feel they would get taken advantage of, but they may live in another state, may have no interest in lining up someone to do the work or a list of other reasons.
Some landowners are better off dealing directly with a logger, and I'll tell them if they feel comfortable, that it would be their best bet. My job is to give them the information and answer questions and explain the different options they have.
But I look at many properties, that aren't ready for harvest, and won't be until after I retire and spend my days fishing. And just as many that landowners have no interest in harvesting. I will explain the benefits of cutting timber, sometimes they realize that they would benefit from it, other times not.
I don't know why foresters would "bad mouth loggers " , as they are the ones carrying out the recommendations given by foresters. There can be all the advice in the world to cut timber, but if there's no one to carry it out, it does no good. I've learned a lot by talking to loggers about their experiences, the marketing of timber products and a list of other things. That's why I enjoy this forum so much, is the vast amount of knowledge from all aspects of the forestry world.
Quote from: Abethetenacious on December 10, 2017, 08:37:13 AM
Cheeky. That's funny I'm glad to know you r tough enough not to kick me off the forum, for a difference of opinion. And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.
As a forester that deals with a lot of high grades in Virginia, 5-7 generations of them actually as they have been cutting forest here for hundreds of years, I can say that a good clearcut can be very helpful. I'm actually going back to "selective cuts" on two properties and clearcut and replant. The highgrades become choked with grape, autumn olive, blackberry, wild rose and are so dense that nothing has emerged even after 10+ years. This is on sites where the young poplar should have been pushing 20-30 feet. Virtually nothing emerged above the thickets. Not all the foresters fault, lots of wind blew down much of the remaining "leave" trees but the "leave" trees would never have shaded the crap out anyway. What makes it worse the few remaining nice trees are all choked with grape vines now. Thousands of acres like this in my county alone. I'd say selective logging is quickly going to become impossible unless we are doing 10% harvest.
Basically Mike is dealing with the same and I think he is spot on, clearcut would be a better option in many cases and replanting is cheap and a chance to insert better genetics back onto the property.
Quote from: Jeff on December 10, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
ah, never mind. I make the choices around here. Yer gone.
Thanks Jeff. Didn't see you had pulled the trigger til after I posted. Sad really, Mike had a very good point and I face the same issues as Mike, maybe even worse because here it is likely to have been a site factor since 1700 or so. 200 years of woodlot management by people that often did not even own the woodlot.
I cut private land for many years now. I do think a professional forester being involved is a good thing. Usually when a landowner gets ahold of me about logging there land I'll refer them to are local DNR office. Or I have some information I can give them of there different options. And it's a shame when I see & hear what a small few of the fly by night logger's do. It makes all us Logger's look bad.
A loggers job is to harvest timber. I know many that are consummate professionals. A landowner's job is to establish objectives and goals for their property. A Forester's job is to assist the landowner in the science of Forestry, Ecology, and Wildlife management in understanding all the options to achieve those goals and objectives. Most Foresters also know the marketplace, just like a Realtor does when you are selling a house, so that the landowner becomes knowledgeable of the value of their timber assets to understand the market value of such so that when the landowner sells, they are educated and know the value of what they are selling.
It is always good business to know the value of what you are selling before you sell it (New Old Saying).
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on December 10, 2017, 05:59:05 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 10, 2017, 04:34:54 PM
Here they like to dress it up by calling it "diameter limit." Naturally the magic diameter is anything the mill will buy which is 12" so we are gonna "select cut on a 12" diameter limit." Everything 12+ goes.
If you do this a few times you are left with only trees that are old and stunted and small.
A true diameter limit cut removes ALL trees over a certain diameter even the junk so you aren't "high grading" you are just choosing a different management style. So given the proper rotation length (stand harvested with a diameter limit cut has a much much longer harvest interval) it isn't the worst thing. I can show you stands that were D limit cut and given 60+ years to grow and they look about the same as stands that were cut every 10 years and thinned throughout the D range.
The risk with diameter limit cut is stalled out old trees that dont ever achieve cut limit diameter. I have tons of these. Maybe its only a few per acre the first go round. Then theres more... And more. Eventually you shift the avg growth rate of that property downward as a collection of slow growing trees keeps escaping the barber. Diameter limit can thus lower avg growth rate if messed up a few times.
Not to mention, how uneconomical is it for a crew to try working around a bunch of leave trees that will never produce? This inneficiency is costing the landowner and the logger money that will never be recuperated. I have tons of big bumper trees. If a skidder tears the bark off one side and theres a limb on the other its already a 2SC tree on its best day. Cull the dang thing already. No one should give up a patch of dirt for 50 more yrs to harvest a tie log.
I think diameter limit cutting needs an enhancement.. Mark or tag the leave trees with a date and diameter. This way the next marking can accurately determine if that tree has an acceptable growth rate to keep or cull. If i were farming hay, i wouldnt accept a big patch that only grows 6" when the rest is knee high. Id remedy that. Since hay is clearcut and regen, anyone can identify this problem. Not see easy in select thinning unless meticulously implemented. Its hard to be a profitable logger and a meticulous one IMO.
I dont begrudge anyone who wants their forest for a certain use that isnt sawlogs. But if it is for sawlogs than i have to be rational and goal oriented. If the goal is to produce maximum dollar value then maximum growth rate is a priority. In clear cut/regen that is easily determined since all trees started at once and are easily compared to decide keepers vs culls. Who is keeping tabs on growth rates of individual trees in a thinning environment? Maybe some do but i havent experienced it. Maybe native wolf and i are seeing something more confined to appalachia where there is a ton of mills wanting logs and a lot of poorer people with substantial land that need money. I dunno man. Theres a bajillion stems here. Just not many big straight ones.
Im shifting my own backyard high grade repair strategy from one of culling the junk, into one of hingecutting it to make deer corridors, bedding and food trails. Its gonna be a long time before a sawlog puts meat on our table.
I hate it when we do a really nice job and leave a bunch of good smaller diameter trees than will mature into valuable timber and then drive by months or a year later and see the whole roadside decimated.
Maybe the answer is to flatten the roadside so it looks like nothing is left.
Asked a property owner where we had cut why he had someone else come in a year later and destroy the lot. His response was we left to many $$ standing, looked good after the pulp was removed, now it looks like a moonscape.
That REALLY sucks. :[
Yep, sometimes us landowners can be our own worst enemy. My sister-in-law is a financial planner, and one of her common complaints is the clients that try and chase yield. Start with a well diversified portfolio, that should do well over time, and then when the market hits a snag, they change the asset allocation. Just like with managing an investment portfolio, managing timberland requires a long perspective to maximize yield.
Yes, a good bit of the problem is landowners who only care about the most money that they can get TODAY.
Quote from: WDH on December 11, 2017, 05:02:54 PM
Yes, a good bit of the problem is landowners who only care about the most money that they can get TODAY.
thank you I was waiting for someone to say that :)
Sometimes I poke around the dark web and a few months ago I learned that there are real trolls. There are instructions on troll methods and how to disrupt a forum or what ever. I guess some do it as a hobby and some have an agenda. Strange world.
Look into russian troll farms.
Hey I bet they need management plans too!
Well, out looks like the Internet Research Agency has a plan in place. Got them working 12 hours a day. What's next?
One point to add to the clear cut debate, and I don't have the answer, is the future market. Around here the most popular method is clear cut, no matter the stand - hard wood, pine, mixed, and re-plant it all to pine. So we are loosing our high value hardwood stands while at the same time the market demand for pulp and framing material is either remaining stagnant or shrinking. Right now we are experiencing a bubble in production from all the early '90's planting and there is so much pine on the market locally that prices are below 2008/2009 levels. What is going to happen in 25 or 30 years? Personally I think owning a commercial pine mill in about 23 years would be a great place to be as the supply will far out weigh the demand and the mill will be able to set the price quite low. Of course that is assuming the Uzbekistan Horny Sprinkled Pine Beetle does not clear it's way through customs and have a grand old time leaving behind a landscape that makes the moon look forested.
Not the uzbek horny sprinkled pine beetle!
So much quarantine.
As a land-owner, help me understand the profits: Clear-cutting seems to me be the most costly for the logger, as that requires them to handle all the trees...not just the valuable ones. When clear-cutting, is nothing left behind, no seed trees? Would I expect the logger to plant after their complete with the harvest or would they leave that to me?
In NY the lot would regenerate on its own, no planting needed.
Honest question here- at what point (as in acres)( or merchantable trees) does a forester for a private individual come in and do a management assecement? ((for lack of a better word)? 5 acres? 10 acres, 15?.
What I'm trying to ask is if a guy has 10 acres of saplings/ nothing merchantable and wants it managed will a forester come out and do it? I thought his cut of payment came from the timber sale. What if there is no "timber"?
If he does do it, who does the work, and how does he get paid? (the forester)
Quote from: Lumberjohn on December 13, 2017, 03:47:03 PMIf he does do it, who does the work, and how does he get paid? (the forester)
We write management plans that may or may not include a harvest, we grow for the future. Those plans are priced on acreage, stand, location, etc. One can be as low as a couple of hundred, or thousands. No one plan fits all.
Quote from: Abeman on December 13, 2017, 11:37:37 AM
As a land-owner, help me understand the profits: Clear-cutting seems to me be the most costly for the logger, as that requires them to handle all the trees...not just the valuable ones. When clear-cutting, is nothing left behind, no seed trees? Would I expect the logger to plant after their complete with the harvest or would they leave that to me?
Costly? Not really, he does not have to work around a leave stand, cut it all and let the sorter sort it out. Clear cut is everything, and no, loggers do not normally replant after a harvest, unless they are with a full service agency of some nature. Once the logging is done, most times, you are on your own. This means you need a plan on what your future looks like, what to cut, clear or selective, That is the foresters job to help you through all this.
I marked and sold a tract for an absentee land owner, left a good growth potential stand. Received good money for the landowner. A couple of years later he went back to the same logger, cut his own deal at the previous price. Problem was timber prices had doubled in the years between my cut and his cut. Plan your work and work your plan.
see that's the trouble the land owner did it and then the logger gets a bad name who is at fault the logger for making money a few years ago I did a job wanted the LO to do a % but wanted no part of that tried to explain it to him that he would make more but all he wanted is his money up front so I paid him a fair price and after it was done he was pithed off because he lost 5 grand for not taking a % in a few years it will be ready to cut again a lot of people around here that pay up front have in there contract to cut down to 10in on the stump :o
Quote from: Abeman on December 13, 2017, 11:37:37 AM
As a land-owner, help me understand the profits: Clear-cutting seems to me be the most costly for the logger, as that requires them to handle all the trees...not just the valuable ones.
For a hand crew running a cable skidder, yes a clear cut often requires a lot more work as it takes just as long to hook a cable to a $5 pulp stick as a $200 oak log and a man can only hook so many in a day. But for a mechanized crew a clear cut represents more profit as the key is production. The more time the feller buncher spends with the saw head in the wood and the more sticks in a grapple skidder for each twitch, the more revenue being generated. Plus no need to weave and bob around leave trees, don't have to worry about damaging the crown when felling, drop them as fast as you can and just take the most direct path to the landing.
What type of wood would double in price in a couple years? I have never seen it here. Soft wood pulp has gone way down. More like the price 20 yrs ago. Hw. Is twice what it was in 1985
The seeds are already in the ground, just waiting on sunlight.
Quote from: coxy on December 13, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
....that pay up front have in there contract to cut down to 10in on the stump :o
What is the problem with cutting a 10" tree? Generally in a hardwood thinning we thin across all the diameters all the way down to 4" DBH.
If you have a crooked poorly formed 6" tree why leave it grow for years only to be a 12" crooked junk tree. When all that time you could have given a potentially better tree a chance to grow in its place.
Amen
it would be different if they took the crappy ones but they only take the good ones and use them for processor wood
As for prices going up over a couple years I've seen WRC go up over %50 in two. If you have a properly equipped crew clear-cutting can be just as fast or faster than thinning. Buncher piles with a grapple skidder feeding a processor vs a hand cutter with a cable skidder. That cable skidder also has a more limited path back to the land where a grapple skidder in a clear cut can just bomb on through and not have to go around trees.
It sounds to me like logging is done different in different areas.
Here we have spruce that has a saw log market or a firewood market.
Birch that only is marketable to some firewood folks.
aspen or popple to some, no market at all
cottonwood, also no market at all.
The mill will take spruce down to 6 in tops, but it has to be a 33 footer.
They have some sales that the logger is only to take birch for firewood, sometimes by the time all the birch the spruce will be toppled by the wind, so they let them go back and take it too.
I haul for basically a new logger, when he bought the sale he opted to also buy the birch which cost him 5500 bucks. There is only one firewood market to buy the birch and he has no way to unload log trucks and relies on self loaders to bring him wood, you also have to wait until he sells it to get your money.
The sale is too far back to use self load trucks, so that is no option, so nary a stick of birch has come off of this sale. He basically threw 5500 bucks out the window.
In a way you could call this clear cut logging, but all aspen, cottonwood, birch and spruce that doesn't make sawlogs are left standing.
How else would you do it, and still turn a profit?
Quote from: quilbilly on December 15, 2017, 09:43:17 PM
As for prices going up over a couple years I've seen WRC go up over %50 in two. If you have a properly equipped crew clear-cutting can be just as fast or faster than thinning. Buncher piles with a grapple skidder feeding a processor vs a hand cutter with a cable skidder. That cable skidder also has a more limited path back to the land where a grapple skidder in a clear cut can just bomb on through and not have to go around trees.
I won't disagree at all I'm on the North Oregon side and watched C&C blow through a 100 acre clear cut in 2 weeks no way a guy with a saw or cable could compete. Now to the thinning can I compete with them yes because production is always about the same about 3 to 4 loads a day because of damage control.
Quote from: Abeman on December 10, 2017, 02:31:34 PM
Wow! Super helpful posts guys. Even the troll served a purpose in bringing out a dynamic I wouldn't have thought through otherwise.
Getting a proper appraisal and plan from a forester seems like the proper approach but I'm curious if foresters will work a detailed plan for the small size of my tract (roughly 17 acres). It seems from my reading, they are involved on very large projects...mine is failry small, no?
Depends!
I've worked with a consulting forester on a thinning of just 4 acres of red pine plantation. He didn't write a formal plan, but would've had I requested it. (But would've charged me more, too. And rightfully so.) But he's been QUITE helpful with dispensing advice, and knowing which local loggers might be better at my particular site's needs, etc.
Thanks to that good experience, we're now working with the same Forester on thinning a 35 acre plot of mixed hardwood and a bit of pine the family owns. The neighbor next door to that has 18 acres and is getting his done now too.
So, it all depends, they may work with you on your 17, but depending on the scenario, you may have to pay out of pocket, too. You also may want to see if your state has foresters available. We initially had a state DNR forester do a walk through of our 4 acres with us to evaluate what we had and what our next step would be. I had no knowledge at the time.....That walk through was free, and prompted me to understand what I had with some sample plots, etc.
Just read the entire thread. Jeff, you have quite the patience! Yes, HIRE a forester, not only for "best care" management, but for "best price" marketing of any timber harvest. It can/will make a difference. True case scenario: Daughter and son in law live on some land the owner was going to log. Owner (80yrs+ widow who makes her OWN decisions) calls timber company (same one as years ago - different parcel) for log purchase agreement. Timber company has a general idea what's out there (aerial photography is good) and offers going camp run rate. Timber company hires "their" logger. EXCEPT, if marketed correctly there were many "poles", at least a $300-400 more per thousand bd ft return. Good diameter, 60's and 80's (tall). But that would have required flaggers and such for long loads. Didn't happen. Nobody "lost money", just wasn't maximized.
1. County forestors are usually free and will come out, walk with you and answer questions. They can verbalize a basic plan based on what youve got and where you want to go with it.
2. The USDA equip program offers rebates on the cost of forestry management plans and procedures. Call your local usda field office.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 10, 2017, 03:21:06 PM
If you cull all the tall folks every 20 years, soon youll have a 5ft population left behind breeding in perpetuity. Thats high grading and you wont live long enough to see nature repair it.
What's wrong with short people? LOL If your big and tall most clothing stores have a section for big and tall. Yet to see one that has a section for short and fat. ;D
Quote from: luvmexfood on December 21, 2017, 08:50:50 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 10, 2017, 03:21:06 PM
If you cull all the tall folks every 20 years, soon youll have a 5ft population left behind breeding in perpetuity. Thats high grading and you wont live long enough to see nature repair it.
What's wrong with short people? LOL If your big and tall most clothing stores have a section for big and tall. Yet to see one that has a section for short and fat. ;D
Don't they call that the "Plus Size" area?
No, they call that walmart!
Quote from: Jeff on December 09, 2017, 07:48:06 PM
You better be careful there Abethetenacious on the way you direct yourself to your fellow members. Your tenure here could be minuscule. You may have no idea what was intended by the comment. I can think of several times a clear cut is beneficial depending on intent and species (aspen or jackpine for example). And as to high grading, the comment is right there too. Sometimes it's better to start over then try to undo what years of high grading has done to a timber stand. You are left with a low or no value stand that may not have any value, even to wildlife. It all depends on the situation.
As far as loggers dollars are concerned. high grading a property 3 times(inproperly), leaving twisted crap trees soaking up the canopy light. Might sound worse than clear cut, and growing a fast growing cash crop like aspen or pine. or what i like to call crap wood....
but in reality, clear cutting destroys the natural ecosystem. Just like the fast growing crap wood blots out the sun for the young oak, maple cherry, birch, etc.... The plants that live in that forest usually get blotted out by pickers, and other nasty invasives or crap plants...
The whole idea of high grading is to establish a forestry plan. Build roads that make sense, not just blaze trail with the skidder ,tearing up everything in sight. Actual roads that can be used in 20 years when another thinning is due. "High grading", You cash out on the high grade trees, and clean the dead, and ones that will die within the next 20 years. also you leave the straight trees, and clean up the twisted crap. The logic is to open the canopy for the younger trees. The younger trees grow twice as fast or faster with good sun light. and the roads are already made... Thats called forestry as far as im concerned.
That should be the message being told on the "forestry forum"... This point of view saying high grading is a bad method, and trying to justify clear cutting... That should be on the "cash out, dont give a crap, logger forum". Greed can kill a forest ecosystem. Even a bad high grading plan can ,as was said, leave nothing of value for the next generation of loggers... But with responsible forestry practices, high grading is the only logical way to cut lumber, and have a healthy forest ecosystem.
I also dont like when people are forced to keep their opinions quiet. so feel free to start a debate. But dont expect to change my mind. :)
If you only know one method, one eco system, and one way of doing things, and are uneducated in widely used forest management terms, you shouldn't be condemning what many many knowledgeable people know for fact. High grading is NOT proper northern hardwood management. It will do exactly at you are concerned about. In Northern Hardwoods, you need to treat your forest like a saving account. Harvesting the interest and maintaining the principal. If you only take the best and leave the rest, which is high grading, you end up with the worst until that forest begins life anew. Northern Hardwood management goals are to improvethe forest at each step, not degrade it.
Aspen may be junk wood in your area, but in good locations it is quite a valuable commodity and many people make a good living harvesting it. I'm late enough in my life that the aspen clearcut harvests I witnessed are now almost to the point of being ready to start again.
I'm going to tell you this one time. You are free to share ideas, you are free to have your own opinions, you are free to debate, but don't you ever come on here and make derogatory remarks about the forestry forum. Got me?
You need to find out what the term high grading means. Yer confused on that Call some of the guys in your area I know a lot of em.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on December 13, 2017, 08:32:37 PM
Quote from: coxy on December 13, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
....that pay up front have in there contract to cut down to 10in on the stump :o
What is the problem with cutting a 10" tree? Generally in a hardwood thinning we thin across all the diameters all the way down to 4" DBH.
If you have a crooked poorly formed 6" tree why leave it grow for years only to be a 12" crooked junk tree. When all that time you could have given a potentially better tree a chance to grow in its place.
Exactly! Thats responsible logging. And its good to see you are in our neck of the woods doing a good job.
People need to think of this as a crop. You are a bad farmer, you get bad crops. You manage the forest so the good trees get the light, and you get good mature straight trees when its time to open up the canopy again.
I think your definition and others of high grading is different. Traditionally high grading in the forestry profession is taking the high value wood and leaving the dead twisted ugly stuff growing, it is cashing out all the value today with little/No regard for the future.
As for aspen and pine being "crap wood" that sounds like an uneducated opinion. Those species have their place and site to grow. Some sites could grow for 200 years and never produce an oak or maple tree larger than 10 foot tall, yet could grow a stand of tall straight large aspen or pine 3 or 4 times over.
Quote from: Jeff on December 25, 2017, 01:46:03 PM
If you only know one method, one eco system, and one way of doing things, and are uneducated in widely used forest management terms, you shouldn't be condemning what many many knowledgeable people know for fact. High grading is NOT proper northern hardwood management. It will do exactly at you are concerned about. In Northern Hardwoods, you need to treat your forest like a saving account. Harvesting the interest and maintaining the principal. If you take the best and leave the rest you end up with the worst until that forest begins life anew.
Aspen may be junk wood in your area, but in good locations it is quite a valuable commodity and many people make a good living harvesting it. I'm late enough in my life that the aspen clearcut harvests I witnessed are now almost to the point of being ready to start again.
I'm going to tell you this one time. You are free to share ideas, you are free to have your own opinions, you are free to debate, but don't you ever come on here and make derogatory remarks about the forestry forum. Got me?
You need to find out what the term high grading means. Yer confused on that Call some of the guys in your area I know a lot of em.
I was just shocked to be seeing a person promoting proper forestry managment getting labeled a troll. Called out...
You can dance around your answer. but what you claim is high grading, is not what i consider high grading. Its perfectly true one greedy logger can ruin it for future generations of loggers. But responsible high grading, like i said, is taking the biggest mature trees. But also the dead. The dying that wont make it to the next thinning. and the crooked crap... You leave the species you want. You leave the young straight trees spaced properly. and in the process, opens up the canopy so the good trees grow faster...
Point is. a oak tree in a field that loos 300 years old, might only be 100 in reality. A tree stuck under the canopy in a ancient forest, might look 100 years old, and be 300 years old... So the point is. Use the sun to grow good trees.
You got guys here who's big pay days depend on clear cutting, and cashing out. The logic is being biased on the imediate money to be made, and the fact the good stands are rare now days.
So clear cutting and cashing out. Waiting 25 years before the aspen or pine is marketable. and having small aspen to harvest... Vs harvesting 20% of a good hardwood stand every 25 years... What is a better savings account??
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on December 25, 2017, 01:55:09 PM
I think your definition and others of high grading is different. Traditionally high grading in the forestry profession is taking the high value wood and leaving the dead twisted ugly stuff growing, it is cashing out all the value today with little/No regard for the future.
As for aspen and pine being "crap wood" that sounds like an uneducated opinion. Those species have their place and site to grow. Some sites could grow for 200 years and never produce an oak or maple tree larger than 10 foot tall, yet could grow a stand of tall straight large aspen or pine 3 or 4 times over.
What do you call it when you go in a old forest and take the best 20% of the forest? Then in a managment plan, clear out the dead/dying/and crap wood. Weither its crooked or aspen?
Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.
And yea. I live up here on the fringe of society, in blistering cold, and horrible economy. One of the good things is we have large, hardwoods to choose from. Im not a production guy. and i dont particurlary like the production game. If im going to take the time to cut, dry store wood, and make something out of it. It sure wont be pine or aspen. Its a byproduct of the hardwood industry. Has value, but i literally avoid it.
You are standing, looking in a circle, and not seeing past the edges of your own field of view.
2 facts. First, Your definition of high grading versus the rest of the forest products community is obviously askew. Your description is great, but your term is off. High grading=bad Kinda like calling cloudy water milk. It aint.
2nd, your concern for the troll is also not being able to see past the edges. This guy was bad news, that is why he was called out and also why he was removed. His attitude towards other members and other things you would have no way of knowing about.
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Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.
You are absolutely out of your league in this conversation. There is no other way to put it, or view it after that statement there
Quote from: woodjunky on December 25, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
What do you call it when you go in a old forest and take the best 20% of the forest? Then in a managment plan, clear out the dead/dying/and crap wood. Weither its crooked or aspen?
I would call that not a good management plan. A proper management plan in a good northern hardwoods stand will remove trees across all diameter classes (not just the best) focusing on removing the worst individuals first until you achieve your target density. After a few rotations of that you won't have many junk trees and you will be removing nice trees across all the size classes but not just the "best". Generally you don't focus on removing a particular species (like aspen) as diversity is good.
Quote from: woodjunky on December 25, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.
There is lots and lots of it around. The Baraga Plains for example is so sandy that there are 50+ year old hardwood trees that are nothing more than a brush, yet there are red pine stands that are growing utility pole size wood in 60-80 years. The area I live close to the lake has shallow poorly drained clay and our hardwood rarely grows to saw log size. It can be 100 years old and 8" diameter and 60 feet tall, but the aspen was removed 50 years ago and now it came back and is 18"+ diameter and in need of harvest again (come to the farm I can show you lots of examples). Not all ground is created equal, that's why foresters use a thing called site index to evaluate a sites potential for a particular species. There is plenty of soil that is best suited to something other than growing hardwood trees.
Pure stands of aspen and pine aren't always there because they were clearcut, they were clearcut because that is how you mimic mother nature and manage those species.
Quote from: woodjunky on December 25, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
It sure wont be pine or aspen. Its a byproduct of the hardwood industry.
That is as far from the truth as possible they are all divisions of one industry producing a product for a consumer
A good majority of the houses in this country are framed in pine. A good majority of the pulp/paper produced in the lake states region is produced from aspen. Those demands are met because there are different segments of the forest products industry.
This is my first post, and without reading the entire thread --just basing my response on the title, my advice is to be involved as much as possible and get multiple opinions. It is your land, period. Do with it what you think you'll aways be happy with long term.
I have 30 acres full of hardwood --with many large veneer quality oak, and I've had 3 foresters look at it at this point --I also have a 2 year degree in forestry so I know a thing or two. The problem with my land is access. There isn't any roads precut and to even begin to get to those tree's, a road on the side of a steep hillside would need built to where it flattens out some. To get a logging company to come over to my neck of the woods and build a road up on my hill to cut 30 acres (small for most logging operations coming from hours away) would not be very cost effective for most logging companies, without pretty much ripping me off the value of timber. There are a few out there who want it, but to make it worth it for them, they would have go against what I personally want to see happen with my land, which is more of a select cut, featuring sections dedicated to wildlife bedding, habitat, etc, etc. If a company takes the time to go on my hill, they will want to cut way more than I want them too just to make it worth their while. If I had 300 acres I'm sure it would be different.
Needless to say, being a contractor/farmer/woodworker, I've decided to selectively get those logs (at least the ones below 30" or so dbh) myself and cut some of them up with a bandsaw mill that I just bought. I've reached out through the grapevine and secured use of a dozer and mini-ex to help get my access cut in. I have a tractor, backhoe, saws, chains, too many tools lol, etc. My entire property is mapped out in the way I want it tweaked for wildlife. I just have to execute it now. I currently have 23 trees on the ground that need milled. I should be busy for a long time lol. I hope to contribute as much as I can to here, to repay the forum for all the knowledge I've found here......
Welcome to the forestry forum, Davidmw. I look forward to hearing more about your progress.
Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #103 on: Today at 06:50:51 am »
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I have 30 acres full of hardwood --with many large veneer quality oak, and I've had 3 foresters look at it at this point --I also have a 2 year degree in forestry so I know a thing or two. The problem with my land is access. There isn't any roads precut and to even begin to get to those tree's, a road on the side of a steep hillside would need built to where it flattens out some. To get a logging company to come over to my neck of the woods and build a road up on my hill to cut 30 acres (small for most logging operations coming from hours away) would not be very cost effective for most logging companies, without pretty much ripping me off the value of timber. There are a few out there who want it, but to make it worth it for them, they would have go against what I personally want to see happen with my land, which is more of a select cut, featuring sections dedicated to wildlife bedding, habitat, etc, etc. If a company takes the time to go on my hill, they will want to cut way more than I want them too just to make it worth their while. If I had 300 acres I'm sure it would be different.
Bingo- This guy doesn't need a forester, he knows how he wants it done. Good point- who is gonna come in on a small job and cull out the trash taking a couple decent logs with a bunch of road that needs put in. My point is if you want all this clean up in your woods, and it isn't feasible for a Co to come out, I guess do it yourself. Why would a production crew want anything to do with it, it surely couldnt pay. I tried saying this in other posts but it didn't come out right.
Well, yeah, if you've got more work to get done than you've got good timber to cut it's either do it yourself or expect to pay out of pocket to get it done.
On the land I own jointly with others, we needed some trail improvement work done, but weren't ready for a timber harvest, so we ended up hiring a guy with an excavator. In this case, we were fortunate, since a local watershed quality group was looking for a demonstration project. Since we allowed public access to the property, we qualified for a grant from them. They paid for the excavator work, we hauled and put in rock to armor the waterbars and broad-based dips so hey would hold up longer.
Red Clay country is The Magical Land that grows basically Aspen. And years ago some of the Logger's select cut some lots I know of. To me there where just cutting the better trees. Now that stuff that was left is falling over and the rest of the stand isn't mature yet. That's where I believe a clear cut should've been done. Then you have a even aged crop next cut.
The place that doesn't grow hardwoods is where I live, PNW. %90 of most stands are Doug fir. The other ten can be a mix of maple alder cedar and hemlock with other random species thrown in. Also for fir to Regen properly it needs a certain amount of daylight, up to 3 acres I've heard. This used to be done by a natural or native American started fire every couple hundred years and the cycle has since been replaced by clear cut and plant.
People are always trying new things, hybrid poplar plantations, DF and WC mixed, alder, and the latest I've heard is UW might do a mixed DF alder plant in their experimental forest in the Forks area. This is all after a clear cut though, nearly every forester clear-cuts after a target age out here. Different areas have different management practices for different climates and species, and site area. To make a one size fits all hardwood only thinning plan for the US is not a good policy.
Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.
You can dance around your answer. but what you claim is high grading, is not what i consider high grading
As far as loggers dollars are concerned. high grading a property 3 times(inproperly), leaving twisted crap trees soaking up the canopy light. Might sound worse than clear cut, and growing a fast growing cash crop like aspen or pine. or what i like to call crap wood....
but in reality, clear cutting destroys the natural ecosystem
All quotes above. I'm probably doing it wrong :-\
We have sand country here. Red pine plantations thrive here. Much better than hardwoods. I wish we had more pine plantations on the property ;) Most of the oak is low grade. We have clearcut a couple areas and have fantastic regeneration, to promote a tight healthy stand again. We just aquired an adjacent 40 from the timber company that was clearcut 40-50 years ago, and is the nicest looking oak on the property. I am very happy they clearcut it 8) We had some land north of here 45 minutes, had some beautiful red oak and aspen. The red oak stands we would thin the crap out and leave the best. Would never think of clearcutting that. The aspen stands we would clearcut, to promote another beautiful stand of aspen. [Which seems to always be good demand for] These were, and are all managed differently.
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What do you call it when you go in a old forest and take the best 20% of the forest? Then in a managment plan, clear out the dead/dying/and crap wood. Weither its crooked or aspen?
"High grading" is generally considered to be when the only effort exerted is at harvesting that best 20% and anything else is left however it lands. Smashed young trees half snapped over, tops standing against the tree they snagged in where the stem was cut off, rotten twizzler sticks left standing at full height to then fall over on the new growth and pin it down. In a few years. So we all agree on whats good and bad, the argument is over regional terminology more than anything.
I have been scouting deer sites around me for a year here on the cumberland plateau of middle tennessee , which is primarily 3 inches of topsoil over a sandy clay, which is over limestone or sandstone. lots of terrain and parcels, lots of different logging and management/mismanagement styles. As for a clearcut wrecking a place i am just not seeing it, and im studying 3 different aged cuts.
Deer love a clearing within a forest, they love edge and gorge themselves on fresh coppice sprouts. So if you have dense timber and hollars that hold deer, theyre gonna find that clearing and make it part of their browse routine. Deer eat the heck out of black gum, red maple, berry brambles, pokeweed, young sourwood, poison ivy, poison oak and whatever our typical thorn is. If you cut and get light you will get deer and they will do a pretty good job of selective mowing. If there is enough other forage, i dont see much evidence of tree damage other than buck rubs. And of those i see it limited to eastern red cedar, sourwood and bush honeysuckle in my range. Ive not found a blazed up oak or hickory yet.
The opposite scenario, our standard really, is all the "woods" left from high graded sites. They are great for holding deer beds because of an abundance of overhead trash tangle. 50 sapplings get pinned into wood caves whenever one of the big dead squirrel towers goes over and pins down any young replacement crop ..which then becomes a climbing vine platform to hog the new opening. Deer love to live in it but theres nothing there to eat, light just doesnt get to the floor. A dead woody tangle that needs either wildfire or a forestry mulcher. Nature is not repairing this, just sustaining the condition left behind by man and his uneducated harvest practice.
I do not find this problem at all on the clearcuts or heavy select cuts. Those are all super dense straight toothpick farms jammed together like bamboo.. Or well on their way to it.
I went back and reviewed early posts from the member giving us the clear cut lesson. In 2014 he could not identify maples thinking the buds were berries. Enough said from me on this subject to him.
Quote from: Jeff on December 26, 2017, 08:27:35 PM
member giving us the clear cut lesson. In 2014 he could not identify maples thinking the buds were berries.
:D :D :D
You mean they are not? Well that explains why my cereal tastes like wood...