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Tractor size

Started by wbrent, November 19, 2018, 10:00:19 AM

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Magicman

I recently sawed this job:  Whatcha Sawin' ??? in Sawmills and Milling


 
I was shocked that the customer's Kubota110 would not lift the log, but the sawmill's loader handled it quite nicely.

So what size tractor is best?  I have never seen one too large.  ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

I went into the abyss with this when I bought my custom made New Holland from overseas.  The North American versions of most tractors, both foreign and domestic, are limited on their lift capacity due to the safety concerns of a full overhead lift, and are generally sized to lift one or two full round bales of hay, overhead, nothing more.  The pressure for most hydraulic system is about the same, so the pressure capacity is there, its just not utilized, intentionally, for an Ag tractor.  So a backhoe, a construction machine, with the same motor will have significantly more lifting power for the same engine Hp, due mainly to larger hydraulic cylinders.

The problem is that when using larger diameter hydraulic rams, you increase the lift force, but lose the speed.  So then larger flow rate pump is required, or even a second hydraulic pump, which I have.

This is why even a relatively small Agricultural or Farm tractor can basically lift as much as a big Farm tractor, and oddly enough, sometime when getting into the real big tractors, say 200 hp and up, the actual lift capacity can go down because these tractors aren't designed for from end loaders and all the hydraulics are servicing the PTO and rear end.

The "Yellow" versions of the agricultural tractors, such as shown in the previous posts are construction grade tractors and generally have the uprated hydraulic system, and can lift significantly more, for the same horsepower.

Once the lift capacity goes up, the rear end, front end, everything must be upgraded also or things start to fall off.  I had my dealer upgrade my loader lift and curl cylinders on my old TN70 and it would dead lift with the big boys, but every now and then the front bearings would crack. 

If buying a new tractor, look at the specs and get the hydraulics upgraded, if possible.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

charles mann

Iv got a 2017 kubota 7060 73hp with 3000# of lift at max lift height or 3500# but loose 10" of max lift. The 3 pt has a 4000# lift capacity. I dont have anything fabbed up yet to lift from the rear, so i use a 4000# set of pallet forks and 99% of the trees im dealing with, i have to engage 4wd to drive forward bc my rear tires are 6-10" off the ground. But if im going backwards, the front drive pushes my rear tires to the ground and helps to disperse the load towards the rear a bit more. 
35-45 hp wont lift but about 1500-2000#. I had a 35hp kubota, traded up to a 50hp 2 yrs later and a yr after that, traded up to a 73 hp. Im done going bigger with ag, so my next purchase will be a construction all terrain forklift or a backhoe. 
Look to the future when purchasing equipment, dont concentrate only on the present. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

caveman

I like the versatility of a tractor but I find myself searching CL often looking for used, medium sized wheel loaders.  If all we did was move logs at a mill and did not need to transport, mow and do other chores that a tractor is handy for, I would probably own a loader.  We saw wood for recreation and do not rely on it to pay the bills- more of an excuse to seek refreshments and watch slabs burn after a few hours of "work".
Caveman

Bruno of NH

My friend had a Kubota wheel loader.
That type of machine would be great at the mill.
They cost a lot more than a tractor.
My Mahindra dealer tells me we might see skid loaders and small wheel loaders soon.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

wbrent

Well a few more weeks have gone by since I posted this originally. I've done a bit more tooling around in the woods and on my mill. I feel that I am unlikely to be cutting anything beyond 20" diameter. And I've inherited a good old logging winch which I hope to use as soon I have a tractor that it will fit. As well I've rigged up a ramp and winch system for getting logs onto my mill.
So my main consideration for the tractor now is: something just large enough to carry this new winch of mine. But not too big that I can't get in and out of the woods comfortably. (Right now my trails are all atv trails.) Drag logs out of the woods to my mill. Front end loader to lift small to medium size loads to and from the mill.
I'm looking at a local 1984 International 484 with a front end loader. I think it will do all that I need it to do but my one question is. It is two wheel drive. Do many of you use 2 wheel drive tractors for dragging logs out of your wood lots?  I realize I'll have to have realistic expectations but is it still reasonable for a hobbyists use?  It comes with chains and weighted rear tires.

47sawdust

Before the 4wd tractors came out a lot of wood was hauled behind a 2wd tractor.It depends on your terrain as well.A heavy 2wd tractor with chains,loaded tires,and good working brakes will work.You will have to depend on the brakes for steering.Before I got my current tractor I used a 2wd Kubota M4000 with a Tajfun winch on the back.It had a creeper gear and that tractor would go anywhere,just not fast.My terrain is rough.
Be careful,things get sqiurrely pretty quick.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

thecfarm

Yes a 2wd will do it. We use to use a Ford NAA,a little bigger than those 8 and 9n's.
But that International looks almost twice the size of what we used. We use to haul out my firewood in log length. Yes,we would get kinda stuck. Sometimes a stump on one side and a good size tree root,or a rock would stop us. Just have to set over a foot and off we would go again.
We bought a 4wd to cut some logs to sell. What a difference. A mighty difference. But I am the same way,sometimes you have to use what you have. Be it money or just don't need something so called bigger and better.
I only have a manual mill. So what? Yes a hyd mill can out cut me all day and easier to use. BUT I don't need a high price mill. I only saw for myself. I am happy with what I have.
Plan out your roads. I still do a real good job with my roads. Be it hauling in rocks to fill up a wet hole or I just built a road and it was a rough spot,rocks sticking up and kinda wet. Many rocks later it is smooth and dry. Whatever improvement you make,you will use it for many years. Yes,it make take me a couple times before I can get a road through. Due to rocks,trees that I want to keep,sharp knolls.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

maple flats

You might also consider a mini excavator. I use an 8,000# excavator to load my mill and also to pull logs out of wet areas. I have a thumb on it now, but originally I just made a HD attachment with tongs on each end. I bolted that across the top, open side of the bucket. According to the log weight tool on this site I could lift about 2500# in close out to the side or in back and no more in front with the blade down, but the blade helped me reach out 4-5' farther. Now with my thumb, I can only lift maybe 2000# but the grip is the weak link. Trying to lift more I simply drop the log as bark slides off.
My little excavator was only $8900 back about 10-11 yrs ago, it is a 1989 machine.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

thecfarm

Yea good idea. Seems like there is a member that hooked a trailer to his excavator and loaded that.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SawyerTed

The IH 484 is similar hp but considerably heavier than my Kubota.  I believe you can do what you need to with that size tractor.  I use a ballast box on the 3 pt hitch when lifting logs with the FEL even with loaded rear tires.  A set of tire chains on the tractor will make a big difference in the woods.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

DbltreeBelgians

You can do a lot with a 2wd tractor. Here's my IH 574 gas tractor with a Dunham 2020 FEL hauling in a little chunk of a blow down burr oak on a set of forks I built for the 3pt hitch or loader. Note the counter ballast in the front bucket and the squatting rear tires. I highly discourage doing this.Wasn't one of my brightest ideas. I had to steer with the brakes.



 
Brent 

47sawdust

Who was the lucky person that got to split that little piece of oak?
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

DbltreeBelgians

Quote from: 47sawdust on December 03, 2018, 07:23:14 AM
Who was the lucky person that got to split that little piece of oak?
Oh that would've been me and my trusty "056 Super". Never again. Huge waste of time and fuel.

Brent

offrink

New here but have been milling wood with a Stihl MS 880 unto 80" wide. We started moving wood with a come along and quickly upgraded! We now use a good sized track skid steer. 3500lb lift with forks. Anything bigger than that we will mill it up on site.

Chuck White

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, offrink!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

alanh

Agree with those above that "construction" equipment is a lot more capable than similiar sized "farm" stuff, a yellow JD 110 is quite a wheeled machine, also the versatility and maneuverability of a skid steer shouldn`t be overlooked

esteadle

I read a couple responses above that mentioned the propensity of a tractor with too much weight to "tip" over. Having had this experience myself a couple times, it's a very real concern. 

One very plausible way to die while sawmilling is to roll over a tractor while carrying too big a log. If you have lots of tractor experience, it's less of a concern, but everyone gets impatient, and sometimes goes a bit too far. 

A lot of the pictures I see posted of tractors with a lot of weight on them in this thread have no Rollover Protection System (ROPS). ROPS will help prevent the tractor from crushing you under it if it does happen to roll over. It depends on you wearing your seatbelt and staying in the seat while that's happening. 

The other option you should look at if you are pulling trees from your woodlot is "Falling Object Protection System) or FOPS. As you bump trees in the woods, they drop things (branches, bird nests, squirrels, and etc.) and some of those things can land on your head. So if you will be moving around inside the woods and under the canopy, consider FOPS equipped tractors too. Safety first. 



thecfarm

offrink,welcome to the forum. I also see you have a LT15 wide. You sure do like the wide stuff.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Southside

Quote from: esteadle on December 03, 2018, 06:36:03 PMA lot of the pictures I see posted of tractors with a lot of weight on them in this thread have no Rollover Protection System (ROPS). ROPS will help prevent the tractor from crushing you under it if it does happen to roll over. It depends on you wearing your seatbelt and staying in the seat while that's happening.  The other option you should look at if you are pulling trees from your woodlot is "Falling Object Protection System) or FOPS. As you bump trees in the woods, they drop things (branches, bird nests, squirrels, and etc.) and some of those things can land on your head. So if you will be moving around inside the woods and under the canopy, consider FOPS equipped tractors too. Safety first. 


Better advice can not be said.  It only takes a moment to get over the center of gravity and roll a tractor, once she start to go your reaction time is too slow.  As far as FOPS go - ABSOLUTELY - I have bumped dead pines with my 48,000 lb feller buncher - it is armored like a tank - and when a 16' chunk of dead pine comes from 20' up it has rocked my buncher like a Tonka Toy - even bounced the loaded tires off the ground - if that were an open station machine the operator would be dead, no question about it.  

Just over two years ago a local guy was removing a couple trees from basically his back 40 using his open station Kubota tractor, well something happened and one fell on top of the tractor and pinned him to the steering wheel.  It really was not a big tree, but it was big enough that he didn't survive.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

waynorthmountie

Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on December 03, 2018, 10:24:55 AM
Quote from: 47sawdust on December 03, 2018, 07:23:14 AM
Who was the lucky person that got to split that little piece of oak?
Oh that would've been me and my trusty "056 Super". Never again. Huge waste of time and fuel.

Brent
What was the diameter on that sucker. Someday I want a big Bandsaw mill for just that stuff. love how it looks slabbed out. Only issue Is I will likely have to ship most of the huge diameter wood to my area so It won't happen. But a man can dream.

bandmiller2

I don't recall anyone telling me their tractor was too big or too powerful. With the advent of articulated loaders the old rear steer loaders can be had for chump change if you search. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

DbltreeBelgians

Quote from: waynorthmountie on December 04, 2018, 09:17:48 PM
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on December 03, 2018, 10:24:55 AMWhat was the diameter on that sucker. Someday I want a big Bandsaw mill for just that stuff. love how it looks slabbed out. Only issue Is I will likely have to ship most of the huge diameter wood to my area so It won't happen. But a man can dream.
I don't recall but it was way too big for the tractor. As a reference the tire size is 
16.9-28. So rim alone is 28"
Brent

YellowHammer

I've owned a 2WD and they suffer from the rear drive wheels coming off the ground the heavier the load gets.  I've gotten stuck on flat ground with a 2WD and a load of lumber logs. Also, if you reverse and turn hard with a load, it will eventually snap the front axles.  I've do that twice.  

A 4WD will dig the front tires in and greatly increase traction with the heavier the load.  I've owned from 40 and up 4WD and the all worked well.

This is my current tractor with the upgraded heavier lift configuration hydraulics.  4 logs and no problem.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Greyhound

You are getting some great advice so far.  If I dare to summarize it so far I would say... 1. Buy used if possible, it is a much better value.  2.  Since tractors, etc, keep their price so well over time, don't be afraid to buy new if need be.  3.  Weight of the tractor is more important than horsepower.  This one is confusing, since oftentimes higher h.p. tractors have heavier chassis.  So, what does this mean?  You may be able to get away with a "compact" tractor in the 20-40 h.p. range if you add appropriate ballast weight to the 3-pt hitch. FWIW, I have Kubota L3710  (38 hp "compact") with an LA681 (1500#) FEL and I can handle pretty good sized logs.  However, if you can afford it you should try to get into a "utility" tractor in the 30-60 hp range (e.g. Kubota M or MX series).  These will have much heavier frames, suspensions and hydraulics.  Sorry, I don't know the comparable models in other tractors.  I'm absolutely no expert.

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