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Contract timber cutting - what to charge?

Started by Oddman, January 07, 2018, 10:43:33 PM

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coxy

its all the same in every job  the rich get richer and the poor get poorer  ;D ;D

luvmexfood

Quote from: coxy on January 08, 2018, 07:25:00 PM
its all the same in every job  the rich get richer and the poor get poorer  ;D ;D
So true. The local fast food restaurants still pay minimum wage to start. I do agree with Starmac. Beside your wages your "company" which is yourself should also turn a profit.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

starmac

I had a guy once tell me that some folks would rather starve while working for himself than answer to company man every day. I think he was talking about himself and me at the time, but there is a lot of truth in it.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Skeans1

One thing I was taught when bidding jobs is figure out your expenses, your wages, and then what you want to make as profit. Expenses gas is roughly 2.75 a gallon, bar oil costs me 8 a gallon, your insurance, your health insurance figure everything in the first time you bid a job then you're not coming back with a higher rate later. I'd be willing to bet the party looking for a cutter goes through them since the other faller has been out tramping for higher paying work.

Oddman

Well fellas I sure have got plenty to chew on...wish I had more experience in the field of contract work but I gotta start somewhere! One thing I keep hearing from y'all and others is to be real careful not to do it too cheap. Heck my problem is that I WANT to get out there and lay down some walnut, nevermind making wages and expenses and a bit extra...but I gotta be looking at the next job, could be it's one that other folks have passed over, rough ground, poor timber, underbrush...sure done plenty of that and I don't want to do it again for peanuts, that's for sure!
Thanks again guys, keep the advice coming, I will report back on how things go.

Firewoodjoe

I think .20 a foot is good money. Crews around here cut and pile for .10-.15 a foot no trucking and the big mills pay around $28-30 per ton to cut and truck pulp. And burger flippers are $10++ and RNs are $25++. I'd charge the same for any tree species. Just try and figure your expenses and add and wage your happy with then add a little more for bad math and see what he says.

280 rem

I've never heard of same pay rate regardless of species. A cutter going to the woods is gonna get paid a higher rate per foot to cut walnut than he will tie grade oak, and he's gonna get paid more to cut tie grade oak than to cut pallet grade trees, never heard of otherwise unless he wasn't getting fair end of the deal. If someone is gonna stick a saw in a walnut tree for me I'd sure want them to have more than 5 cents worth of experience and more than 5 cents worth of care for what he's doing. A good cutter might lay down 10,000 feet a day of low quality timber but he ain't gonna lay down 10,000 feet a day of walnut.
We saw walnut lumber for the same reason Willie Sutton said he robbed banks, "because that's where the money is"

Select 4221E, baker edger, cat 908 loader, Jd 548E, timberjack 230d, hood 7000 loader.

Firewoodjoe

I think a good cutter or anyone working for someone should take the same care for any and all work. Weather it's low grade high grade it's not the cutters to judge or determine its value. It's only his job to get the job done to the best of his ability. I understand low grade gets paid less than high grade but I believe here that's due to the profit differance. But the percentage of pay vs value is about the same.

Oddman

Oftentimes walnut is spread out a fair ways tree-to-tree...it had better pay more just for that reason alone, a guy can spend all day chasing down a couple dozen on one property.

Firewoodjoe


280 rem

Well the reality of it is there is a difference in what is expected in cutting an $80 tree down or an $800 tree down. I would want to be paying someone enough that they aren't in a rush to get some footage layed down for the day and something gets busted. Also the knowledge of how to cut can be changing the butt log value by a $100 or more. You would be pretty sick if you had an 8-18 sawlog when you could have had a 9-18 veneer log if the guy would have cut it 10" lower for example. The knowledge is what's of value. You don't start driving at 16 in a corvette here, is what I'm saying.
We saw walnut lumber for the same reason Willie Sutton said he robbed banks, "because that's where the money is"

Select 4221E, baker edger, cat 908 loader, Jd 548E, timberjack 230d, hood 7000 loader.

280 rem

Oh I'm sure there is a lot of guys who would love to have cutters cut their walnut for a pallet log rate. That is how the rich get richer  8)
We saw walnut lumber for the same reason Willie Sutton said he robbed banks, "because that's where the money is"

Select 4221E, baker edger, cat 908 loader, Jd 548E, timberjack 230d, hood 7000 loader.

Skeans1

Typically if there's a grade above say our standard export or domestic fir or say I need to jack the girl over the price would be wet at X amount per hour above rate, otherwise every species would be treated the same. Say one of my personal firs at 200+ feet roughly 5' dbh takes me at the most 15 to get it down, same tree going for a pole or has a back lean over a line could be half an hour or longer in 6 hours not a whole lot gets done then.

Lumberjohn

Probably the easiest is to charge by the tree, maybe $30.00 a tree or so. Just a guess, but wouldn't overall run of walnut average 200 bdft or so?- I don't have my stick handy right now and its been awhile. It would depend on if you have to buck, slash tops and chase trees all over like others have said.

mike_belben

I think we are starting to look at the difference between self employed contractors who find their own jobs,  and employees who go where the boss tells them.  Where i am at, the employee doesnt have the leverage to be negotiating per tree.  He gets paid a fixed rate of some sort generally based on skill, speed and dependability.  The employer covers tax withholding and cutter just worries about showing up, makin it to quitting time and getting his check on friday. I know a few and they dont negotiate tree rates per job.   
Praise The Lord

TKehl

Mike's comments on employer withholdings is important.

If you haven't been self employeed or done contract labor before, the taxes are a lot different.  You want to keep all receipts, track your mileage, and charge a little extra to cover SSN and taxes.  Keep track of income as well.  You will probably get several 1099's.

When an employer takes care of taxes, they pay half your contribution to SSN.  (In reality they cut what they pay you to match that, but it's money the majority of people never see or think about.)  When you file taxes with self employed income, you pay your typical half + the other half your employer would have paid.  It's good to set some a side each check so you don't get slammed with a large bill at tax time.

The good news is you will have more deductions, like vehicle depreciation, possibly a home office, part of the cell phone bill, etc.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Lumberjohn

Quote from: mike_belben on January 09, 2018, 09:14:29 AM
I think we are starting to look at the difference between self employed contractors who find their own jobs,  and employees who go where the boss tells them.  Where i am at, the employee doesnt have the leverage to be negotiating per tree.  He gets paid a fixed rate of some sort generally based on skill, speed and dependability.  The employer covers tax withholding and cutter just worries about showing up, makin it to quitting time and getting his check on friday. I know a few and they dont negotiate tree rates per job.

His title did say contract cutting, which in my mind is self-employed, with all the other pros and cons.. I assume he can legally do it for another guy that bought the timber. I just wonder why the Amish guy doesn't have a crew of his own, they do around here. As a matter of fact, last I was in this business English were hiring Amish, not the other way around.


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