A way to remove stuck countersunk hex (allen) head bolts from Lucas 618 Sawmill

[fishpharmer]

A few days ago I had some trouble removing the circular blade from the Lucas 618 sawmill.  Four countersunk hex (allen) head bolts hold the blade on the driveshaft hub.  The hub bolt holes are threaded with a locknut on the backside. 

Three bolts were easy to remove with the 5 mm allen wrench.  One was stuck (rust) and wouldn't come out by hand, even after soaking the back (nut) side with penetrating oil for a few hours.  I ended up stripping it out. 


Now what?  I Drove to town and got a small easy out. That only made it worse, didn't budge.  The nut was easy to remove from the backside of stuck bolt.  The bolt wouldn't even break loose with vice grips attached to the threaded backside.


At that point, I was tempted to heat the hub with a torch. Not wanting to damage gearbox, hub or blade, instead, I welded a lag screw to the stripped bolt.  To keep from welding bolt to hub threads, the lag screw was held in place with the ground clamp and tacked on.


Finally, after putting a wrench on the lag bolt head, the blade bolt was easily removed.  There's probably a better way, like not stripping the bolt to start with :-[

It worked for me.  Hopefully this will help someone with a similar problem. 8)

[beenthere]

Sounds like you didn't have any Blue Creeper.  :

[customsawyer]

Where there is a will there is a way. ;) 

[terrifictimbersllc]

Your solution is inspiring. Apparently not the end of the world.
Here's my plan.
1. Blue  Creeper every time on/off.
2. Dig out sawdust in socket with small screwdriver before trying to remove bolt.
3. New Bolts and allen wrench often.
4. New bolt often.
5. Not too tight.
6. New bolt and Blue Creeper often.
7. Give thanks whenever one can loosen them.
8. Give thanks again and sprinkle Blue Creeper.
9. Give thanks for Blue Creeper.

p.s. my mill blade has 8 of these bolts

[drobertson]

where the is a will there is a way! amen!. the heat is what did the trick, I have battled many a flat heads that are froze up, minimal heat around the outside of the countersink usually works, the best solution is the copper anti seize when re-installing.

[slider]

We use a product called never sease ,spell.NAPA sells it also lock tight makes it,We use it on anything that is going to come back apart .I have been using it for 30 years and it works.It's not cheap but worth it when you have rust or moisture.Also on a broken stud or bolt i like to first weld a flat washer to it then weld a nut to that then while it's still hot rock it back and forth.glad you got it out.  al

[bandmiller2]

There are several actions you can take to up your odds of removal.Take a flat punch and give the screw a good sharp rap.Dip the end of the allen wrench in valve grinding compound and drive to bottom of hex hole.If the wrench has buggered the hole get the next size allen wrench, usally metric,and carefully grind a slight taper on each of the flats,drive on and pray. Easy-outs are a cruel hoax,there not easy and won't get anything out. Frank C.

[fishpharmer]

Thanks for all the advice and comments, I usually do things the hard way.

My friend Furby directed me to a ff post that addressed the Lucas blade bolts...
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60602.msg924779.html#msg924779

Wish I read it earlier.

[metalspinner]

I have a cordless dewalt drill driver that "hammers" while driving or unscrewing.  I wonder if that could have helped?

[fishpharmer]

Probably that and a torx bit would have done it.

[drobertson]

flat heads almost weld solid, for whatever reason, just a larger contact area, I just wish they took a bigger size wrench, they are always a pain, anti sease is about the only good answer.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

I use a small Cold Chisel on them when they are stripped out like that or bound up I carry one in the tool box afew good taps and its free  ;)

Regards Chris

[r.man]

This is like women and straight or curly hair. One company is selling us both a product to make threads not hold as well and another to make them hold better. Makes you wonder if we have become stuck in a rut and should have found a better way to hold things together.

[rmack]

where the is a will there is a way! amen!. the heat is what did the trick, I have battled many a flat heads that are froze up, minimal heat around the outside of the countersink usually works, the best solution is the copper anti seize when re-installing.

I agree 100%. Heat is one of the handiest tools a millwright will ever have. Fishpharmer put a new head on the capscrew, and used heat to break the rust bond at the same time. good job 8)

[Satamax]

Looking at this




First of all, i would have tried two "counternuts" against each other and trying to screw. Or may be an acorn nut  Or may be two nuts welded and the second one plugged with metal.

[Nomad]

Looking at this




First of all, i would have tried two "counternuts" against each other and trying to screw.

     Yup.

[woodyone.john]

with my peterson i  drilled 3mm [1/8"] countersink into near the perimeter of the head and installed the screws with liberal anti seize. when it came to getting the out a centre punch rap would back them off sufficient to easily undo them with  the allen key. cheers john 8)

[fishpharmer]

Lot's of great suggestions.  Always heard, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Thanks everyone, these methods help everyone here. 8)

[Al_Smith]

An once of prevention is always worth more than a pound of cure .That little dab of Never Seeze is the answer .

You have to remember a grade 8 bolt is high carbon steel. Once it rusts tight as they do weather it's an allen head or Torx it's going to be a real job to back it out .Plus anything running in an environment of sawmill related items is subjected to the acidic conditions present in the saw dust which makes matters worse .

If you folks think those little blade bolts are a chore should try drilling out chipper knife bolts somone didn't never seeze .'tain't no picnic .

[Al_Smith]

Now a little blurb on grade 8 bolts .First they are hard as twice hammered hell .A high speed steel drill bit might only drill out a small amount before it dulls out and running a dull drill only makes the steel harder .

The only thing I've ever found that will drill out a grade 8 is solid carbide which cost a fortune .Now as luck would have it I'm fortunate enough to able to get discarded bits from work that don't meet standards so I have plenty on hand .

No matter what is used to drill out a bolt do not over heat the steel .If the bit is not pulling a chip either resharpen or get another bit .Use some type of coolant ,WD -40 "cool tool" "tap magic " water from a mist bottle  if nothing else .Last but not least ,Never Seeze on reassembley .

[tjhammer]

it seems like every time I change blades I always have one that don't want to come out,I use a impact from the start lots of never seeze if the impact rounds the hole I use a air hammer and chisel to the out side edge of the bolt I don't have nuts on my saw bolts so I can't get ahold of the back side,I change bolts when I change saws,with out never seeze they are almost imposible to remove
tj                                 

[fishpharmer]

TJ, did you make your own blade hub?  And do you use Lucas blades, thinking you made your mill?

[tjhammer]

hello fishpharmer I made the arbor out of a 2 in truck axel I think the carbon in the axel was higher then the arbor bolts,rust was a big factor in the arbor,didn't have to worry about it breaking it was mounted like a jack shaft with two bearing,I built the arbor to a lucas saw,I sold the saw a while back I have another saw now,I wished I would have built a 10 in saw
tj






                                                 

[sigidi]

Pleased ya got it out Fish, bit of a bummer ya didn't see the thread before, but its cool there are lots of options available, good onya mate  ;D

[tjhammer]

fishpharmer I changed out my saw blade yesterday,its a lucas sawblade I rounded out all 5 allen head bolts,I had a liberal amount of never seeze on them,I drove a #5 metric allen into a 1/16 allen hole and finally they come out,is theitr a specific torque for the blade bolts?I had a lucas saw blade on and had only sawed 2 pines with it, should the bolts always be this hard to removed, is their a difference between a metric and usa bolt other than thread pitch,I'm going to try torque heads this time to see if they do any better, I also noticed their's a difference in blade thickness I had my lucas blades re hammered for a slower rpm,mine runs around 2000 +/-
tj