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Storing dead-stacked lumber packs

Started by btulloh, September 05, 2017, 08:32:28 AM

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btulloh

Is this enough support for storing a bunch of 4/4 x 8 x 105ish lumber that's packed and banded?  The packs will be 14 to 20 inches high.


 
HM126

petefrom bearswamp

Looks OK to me but what species and is it under cover.
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btulloh

I should have mentioned that.  SYP, EWP, White Oak.  In a shed.  I just don't want to make bowed lumber.  I haven't had a need to store it this way until now.  Most of it won't be stored for too long, but could be a year or so.
HM126

YellowHammer

It will work, but I store all mine on skids/pallets. I highly recommend it as it prevents having to get off the loader or forklift and move the skids all the time.  It also insures the runners all line up, stack on top of stack and makes for orderly storage.





YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

It doesn't take long for the lumber to pile up does it yellow-hammer.  :D ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

btulloh

You're right about that YH.  I must have lost my mind for a moment.  I need to bang together some more pallets.  Looks like skids work ok for you.  I stayed away from skids because I thought they'd flex too much. Maybe I should try a couple.
HM126

YellowHammer

Peter,
Yes, this wood takes up a lot of space.  This is maybe only three months or so inventory, we have to keep it pretty lean because that's my usual cycle time from log to lumber, as well as my insuranse limit.  Good news the building never really fills up, it sells pretty fast.  I wish I had a bigger building to build more inventory, take some of the stress off me to not run out. 

Btullah,
True pallets with bottom boards will sometimes leave sticker stain if they are stacked on other green wood or in the kiln for drying.  Open bottom skids have a minimum contact area so won't zebra stripe other stacks they are placed.  I use the skids to catch the wood as it comes off the mill, then when it is stickered and green stacked for air drying (where stacking on top of each other is important to provide flattening weight) then placed in the kiln, and later deadstacked.  At that point it goes to the planer on a trailer and comes back to me to be stacked in our buildings.  All on the same type skids. 
Flexing isn't a problem because it's holding packs of wood, so support isn't needed. 

I painted stripes on out barn floor to act as an assembly template where the runners are supposed to be, then put low grade wood in top of the runners and hit them with the nail gun.  Quick assembly. 

Skids, skids and more skids. They are incredible time and work savers.



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

btulloh

Good tip on painting the template on the floor.  Since it was rainy and cool today I cut some parts to make skids and marked out a template on the floor.  I already use skids and pallets for anything I have around here that has to move on a regular basis, so your point about not getting up and down off the loader to move anything hits home.

Tomorrow I will probably be finished with the first load in the kiln, so I'm getting set up to manage the lumber now that I can dead stack it. 

I'm glad I have a few loads of pine ready to run first, because I don't feel very confident about managing oak yet.  Maybe by the time I get all the pine through the kiln, I'll have a better handle on it. 

HM126

longtime lurker

I dont dead stack quite like y'all.  Even dead stacked here we will have a row of stickers every 4 to 6 rows depending on thickness... keeps the stack more stable. Aint nothing worse then cutting the straps on a pack to pull a couple of boards and then having the entire outside row of the pack fall onto the floor.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

I agree that dead stacking needs stickers every eight layers especially with dimension lumber of the same size and even if banded. Hardwoods with random width nest better so maybe 22 layers. Injury from tipping piled is too common.  With narrow packs, like Four feet, more frequent spacing like 6 layers, is needed. Spacers can be thin lath.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

btulloh

HM126

123maxbars

Quote from: YellowHammer on September 05, 2017, 10:31:26 PM
It will work, but I store all mine on skids/pallets. I highly recommend it as it prevents having to get off the loader or forklift and move the skids all the time.  It also insures the runners all line up, stack on top of stack and makes for orderly storage.




My Goal for this time next year, nice set up!
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YellowHammer

I highly recommend skip planing or hit or miss surfacing to avoid the stacking problems people have mentioned.  We surface ours within a week or two of coming out of the kiln to 15/16".  We do some ourselves, but outsource a lot to local wood shop with a nice double sided Pineheiro planer and four guys to run it.  Same thing with our 8/4 and 12/4.  Then it can be stacked high and flat and left.  Normally, I don't like sitting on dead stacked rough sawn because there are lots of boards that aren't flat and that can lead to others not sitting flat, or gradually inducing problems.
 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

btulloh

More good thoughts YellowHammer, thanks.  I made a pallet template that I laid out on the floor per your method.  It sure does make it quick and easy. 

I can see where skip planing makes a lot of sense, for many reasons.  Especially since I'm the one using the lumber down the road.  My main planer has a Byrd head, and it's not really good for running this rough stuff, especially pine.  I am in the process of setting up another planer with straight knives for this rough work.  I think I'll try skip planing stuff that comes out the kiln before stacking and storing, except the siding that I want to use rough.

Thanks for all the good suggestions.
HM126

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

I do believe that YH is referring to hardwoods.  For softwood dimension, like 2x4 or 2x6, planed lumber is the worst, as there is little natural connection between the adjacent columns, so they tip easily.  The OP mentioned syp and white pine, as well as white oak.

This is why it is standard practice to never stand on the side of a pack when cutting the bands.  It is possible that when the bands are released, a column or two of lumber will fall and hit someone standing on the side.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

YellowHammer

As Gene says, deadstacking all the same width dimensional lumber will lead to unstable columns on the edges that will fall over unless the edges are offset and pallet strapping is used.  We do both.  We almost never move packs over a couple dozen layers high without them being bound with pallet strapping.  This aids in stacking safety but also works as an inventory management tool, as its planed and made into a "pack" I write the board footage and date on the side.  Then I can quickly do inventories by knowing nothing has changed from the last inventory except for a pack that has been opened and the strapping removed.  We have had a few memorable lumber spills before we used strapping, and using lumber strapping is like wearing a sear belt.   You don't need it until you need it.




YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Brad_bb

So YH, is the deck of the pallet solid(boards tight together), or are you using only 4 boards spaced apart?

Are you making your own pallets?  If so, how are you attaching your deck boards to your runners? Screws?  Nails?  I only have ability to do screws.  I don't have a pneumatic nail gun.  I'm not sure what the right type of nails or size to use would be if I had a pallet maker do it.  I want them strong and not coming apart or breaking/splitting.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

WDH

I make my own, too.  The deck boards have a gap between them.  They are made with 3" galvanized nails.  All mine have the runners on 16" spacing. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Lawg Dawg

Pallets is the only way to go...I made mine following Jim Rogers blueprint.  Shoot them with 3" ring shank galvanized
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Brad_bb

I am asking about spacing because I thought maybe in the kiln you wanted to direct the airflow from the side rather than from the bottom.  In the other post about lumber pallets, I show a deck on the pallet made from 4 2x4's.  So there are big gaps between them(10 inches roughly).  So I'm thinking of using hardwood 2x4's for the runners spaced about 13 inches apart, and 5/4 for the decking.  But I'm trying to determine if I should cover the deck with only a small expansion gap between the deck boards, or just use 4 boards that are only say 6 inches wide?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

PA_Walnut

Yellow, on your above pictured building, are the trusses from a kit? I'm considering a large building similar to yours (PT posts with metal trusses) and seeking tips/endorsement of some of the available systems. Thx
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WELumberjack

I thought to revive this thread from 2018 since I thought it applied the most to building pallets, but I've included links to 9 similar threads below. I've run out of pallets/skids and need to make some more (only made <10 the first go-around). For efficiency and working alone, I don't want to handle lumber by hand more times than necessary.  Currently all my lumber is stored to air-dry in a field on 36" wide pallets with steel ribbed tin roofing/siding 38" wide to cover the top to shield from the sun, rain, and snow.  I don't have the luxury of a poured concrete slab or roofed building with open sides since I'm sawing on someone else's property.  Given the potential unevenness of the field, I place 6x6s (or preferably 8x8s) x3 that run lengthwise below my pallets as a base and to get the lumber off the ground for airflow and to minimize rain splash of any potential dirt. Stacks are oriented north/south and perpendicular to the prevailing West à East wind. See pics in my hemlock thread for reference (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=124113.msg2022420#msg2022420). I want to continue to make a standard pallet/skid 36" wide. (So, I did a FF search and looked up a bunch of past threads on the subject (I'm sure there are others) and placed them below in no particular order for quicker reference).  I'm also curious if others have refined their techniques over the years and what changes you've made, or do you still do the same thing you always did?

1) My Lumber storage story - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=48895.0;all
2) Standardizing lumber pallet? - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=101389
3) Newbie mistake. I leaned the hard way. Palletizing. - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=104143
4) Lumber pallets - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=98872
5) Do you put weight on your stacks for air drying, if so what? - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=121539
6) Lumber storage idea - adjustable pallet - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=120144
7) Pallet dimensions and design - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=108743.0;all
8) Making Kiln Pallets - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=116912
9) Do you put weight on your stacks for air drying, if so what? - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=121539

Currently I saw both softwood and hardwood logs that are usually bucked to 8'6", 10'6", 12'6", rarely 14'6", and even more rarely 16'6" on my WM LT-30.  16-footers are a very tight fit on my 16'9" capacity mill and almost impractical to saw. The majority of what I saw are 8', 10', & 12' lengths.

What I've distilled from all these threads is what I'm going to try to do in this next set of pallets:
**Make cross-members/stringers of 36" long 2x4 rough-sawn pine spaced 16" on-center (O.C.) and screw decking of 4/4 rough-sawn pine with ~1" gaps that are 6'3", 8'3", 10'3", 12'3", 14'3", and 16'3" that are with an open bottom/no boards underneath to limit sticker-stain.  Occasionally I saw side-boards that are shorter than whole log length, that I still edge on the sawmill and stack on a shorter pallet.
The first time I made the mistake of making my first decking boards at exactly 8', 10', & 12' and forgot to include the 1.5" on-center overlap on each end when I used 1.5" thick cross-runners. No big deal, but it made the last sticker ride on only half the support below.  I see the key point made in past posts by @WDH and @YellowHammer that 16" on-center cross-member spacing is best for hardwoods. I note their many years of expertise/experience to back that up. I've seen some space crossmembers and stickers at 12" spacing and some 2'/24" spacing or a variety in-between. But 12" spacing seems like lots of additional stickers that start to add up. 24" seems too far apart for hardwoods to keep things flat. Since I also saw some softwoods, I want to keep all my pallets the same, so that whatever stacks are on top of each other (maybe only 2 (at most 3) in a field), the stickers can all line up vertically over each other.  I have gathered that being OCD on this is important to producing flat lumber.  I read @YellowHammer uses kiln-dried culls and he and others have skip-planed their lumber to exact dimensions. Currently I don't have access to a kiln, so the pallets I'm building with will be air-dried lumber along with the lumber that I'm going to be air-drying. So technically those dimensions of pallets could change as things dry. Also, the gap between decking boards on my initial pallets was too wide; this time I'm aiming for a 1" gap.

With measuring the intervals of 16" on-center up to 16' long:
0" 16" 32" 48" 64" 80" 96" 112" 128" 144" 160" 176" 192" (Then add 1.5" on each end of each decking board if using 1.5" thick lumber; or 2" on each end if using full 2x4s)

My questions are: What to do about pallets for 6', 10', and 14' boards that aren't multiples of 4' for 16" on-center? Should I make separate pallets that are longer or shorter than the boards for these lengths? Does the overhang/overlength matter significantly to the length of boards and how flat they dry?  I assume so. This is for boards to end up as multiples of 2' lengths: 6", 8', 10', 12', 14', & 16'.  Currently I'm willing to try to cut final boards of those lengths. I currently don't have the limitations that WDH and @Brad_bb described.  I haven't drawn a line yet..

Examples:
1) Is it better for 6'6" (78") side boards I'm sawing be stickered/stacked on pallets that are 1) shorter (say 64" O.C. (5'4")) and have boards overhang 7" on each end; or 2) pallets that are longer (80" (6'8")) with no overhang?
2) For 10'6" (126") boards: 1) Shorter pallets could be 112" (9'4"), but there would be ~7" overhang on each end or 2) Longer pallets would be 128" (10'8").
3) For 14'6" (174") boards: 1) Shorter pallets could be 160" (13'4") with 7" overhang on each end or 2) Longer pallets would be 14'8" (176").

Does it make more sense (and be simpler) to make only 3 lengths of pallets that are 8', 12', & 16' lengths, and just stack and sticker boards without any/minimal overhang (<3-6") 8'6", 12'6", and 16'6" boards on each and just stack the 6', 10', & 14' boards on the longer pallets that would fully support those boards?  I think so; and after thinking through things and typing this out may take this approach.

I have read that 8' boards are the industry standard/most common length. But there is always the risk of end-drying splits at the end of the boards, hence the initial length of bucked logs to 6" overlength during this drying phase. (You can easily cut a board shorter, but it's very difficult to make a board longer without a very special board-stretcher!)  I have debated in Wisconsin (especially in the winter) whether it is beneficial or practical to end-seal logs with Anchorseal in freezing temps. I don't have enough experience whether it makes a difference here on end splits.

Lastly, I also think that using full 4" tall cross-members helps to get forks all the way across under the pallets and not deflecting into the layer of lumber underneath or ground (especially on uneven ground of a field) with a skid-steer, tractor, or telehandler to be able to safely pick up a pallet.  My ground is not as smooth/flat as a concrete slab. I don't have a skid-steer with tracks, so every bump and twig changes the height of the tips of my 42" forks as my skid-steer's wheels drive over them.  In a couple of WDH's posts he mentioned using 4.25" tall cross-members since he could fit 2" foam pieces x2 stacked on top of each other in his kiln to direct/block airflow through his stacks. I'm not at the kiln stage yet, but I can see where planning ahead for that would help.  Maybe I'll make those cross-members/stringers just a little bit taller. I have also noted that pallet strapping or ratchet-strapping the ends of packs before moving on the forks increases the rigidity of a stacked/stickered pack of lumber.

I'm curious of other's current thoughts and if you're doing anything different now than past posts?
Ben
1993 WM LT30 HD, 20' Load Trail Deck-over trailer, Stihl MS250, 390, 661, 60" LogRite Cant Hook
- Anything can be firewood, but the beauty in a log remains to be discovered...
- Trying to live up to the name of my HS mascot! Wausau East Lumberjacks

WELumberjack

In this picture I have a 12' pallet on the bottom with 12'6" boards; then a 9'4" (112") pallet on top of that with 10'6" boards covered by a piece of tin.
1993 WM LT30 HD, 20' Load Trail Deck-over trailer, Stihl MS250, 390, 661, 60" LogRite Cant Hook
- Anything can be firewood, but the beauty in a log remains to be discovered...
- Trying to live up to the name of my HS mascot! Wausau East Lumberjacks

Brad_bb

Like Yellowhammer, actually probably directly from YH and others here on the forum, I learned that using lumber pallets is way more efficient than using bunks.  

Actually we just call them big stickers or bunks.  For us, skids are another name for pallets.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

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