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Forestry Practice?

Started by Dal_sanyl, November 06, 2012, 07:02:49 PM

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Dal_sanyl

Is Forestry a good thing? Doesn't it do harmful things to our environment?  How can we protect our forests when people always cut them down?

Jeff

Certainly it is a good thing. The definition of Forestry is the science or practice of planting, managing, and caring for forests. How can any of those things be detrimental? 

Quote from: Dal_sanyl on November 06, 2012, 07:02:49 PM
How can we protect our forests when people always cut them down?


If you do some research, and use your mind instead of your heart, you will see that the forest product industry is growing more trees than we are using. The whole Idea is to use and manage a resource that is forever renewable. The last thing anyone involved in Forestry wants to do is work themselves out of a job by destroying our forests.

Tell us a bit about yourself if you would, so we can understand why you might think that Forestry is damaging.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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woodmills1

welcome


but I must ask   you joined here....WHY?



trees our most renuable resource
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

thecfarm

Dal-sanyl,welcome to the forum. I have about 150 acres here in Maine. There was never any logging done on this land that my Father,born in 1923,could ever remember. We did cut some firewood for our own use,but did not even put a dent in the woods.My father and I  started to log it between "93-97. Than my father passed away and I did not do much until about 2007 and 2009. I had about half of the 150 logged by someone else. there are still about 70 acres that has not been cut and it shows. Lots of dead trees. A forest needs to have some of the trees removed so the others will grow better and stronger. cutting trees is not bad for a healthy forest. There is a few acres that I really enjoy walking in. Nothing smaller than a foot in size and trees are growing 10 feet apart. But others places trees are falling over due to being too thick for others to really grow good. We need trees each and every day for all of the things we use in our every day life.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jeff

Quote from: woodmills1 on November 06, 2012, 07:16:58 PM
welcome


but I must ask   you joined here....WHY?



trees our most renuable resource

Careful there woodmills. For all we know, this new member may be a young person trying to form their own personal opinions by asking questions. You were a teacher. You probably saw first hand how erroneous information about our natural world is spread by so called educators. We are here to give the world a professional accurate response.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

KBforester

I'll give an answer at the risk of this not being a serious question. Or perhaps its a high school student trying to find someone else to do their homework? If it is a serious question, I'm not trying to offend you.

Human Life always has impact. The harvesting of forest products are arguably less damaging than practically any other resource that we consume.

-Agriculture is far more damaging to the environment than logging. What do you think a corn field used to be? It's essentially a clear cut- except clear cuts grow back. When was the last time you heard about green peace slashing the tires on a soy farmers tractor? (I'm not bashing farmers, just the bias)

-Assuming your house is built with wood, the placement of your house, and the displacement of whatever existed their before it was a house (urban sprawl), is farm more destructive than the logging and milling of the lumber to build the house. With forestry, trees grow back. If its not sustainable, than its not forestry. Logging is not the same thing as deforestation.

-Wood as a fuel is more closely tied to the carbon cycle. Simple math can be used to balance carbon output and input. You can't do that with oil.

-If you were to start replacing all our wood products with plastic, and concrete... you would be truly living an unsustainable life. There are few other alternatives.

Again, not trying to offend you, or farmers. We need farmers.
Trees are good.

Mooseherder

Trees live and die as we do and also have a shelf life.
To not harvest them is shameful and a waste of natural resources.

woodmills1

welcome


please find the answer to your questions




this would be the best place to do that



trees grow



please follow up and clarify your questions on trees and their value
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Ianab

If you read much of the forum you will get the idea that most members are VERY much into conservation, recycling and sustainable use. None of us want to see Forests vanish either. It's more about how to manage the forest, creating some economic benefit, while at the same time leaving it as a forest. Heck sometimes even a clear cut is a valid management plan, providing you intend to regrow the forest. (Planted or natural regeneration). So cutting down some trees is only a part of the whole process, which can be repeated over the decades. Arguably more "sustainable" than pretty much ANY other human endeavour?

So don't mistake cutting down a tree for destroying a forest, any more than picking an apple destroys the apple tree. While we may enjoy the tree felling part, and even boast about it, I would wager that the members here have planted and cared for more new trees, and acres of land, than any similar "conservation" based group?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Autocar

It's been a number of years ago but we use to have a 4 H club on forestry. We had different trees in different woodlots we would measure the circumference in the spring and fall , this went on for years. After a timber harvest you would be surprized how they would jump in circumference and they were becoming the next timber tree for the next harvest. The great thing about trees , there a renewable resorce and if we manage it correctly there will be a healthy forest long after we are gone.
Bill

OH logger

i second what everyone else said and will add this. there is a local farmer around here that leaves his corn and beans stand till march or april or may of the following year regardless of how nice the previous fall was for harvesting the crop. all the while they are losing yield to the elements wildlife, etc, etc. most of the neighbors think he is dumb and darn  neared insane, which he may be. BUT some of those same farmers do the same thing, except with trees. they will not sell them for a variety of reasons, some true and most not. to me they are not utilizing the resource that GOD put on earth to USE NOT ABUSE. trees are like any other crop. if they are mature they should be harvested before the elements of life get the best of them. the one thing that i am passionate about is SUSTAINABLE forestry.     (oh and P.S. don't call crews that floor woods "butcherers". butcherers are very SKILLED people.)
john

JohnW

Well, I say thanks men, for your well thought out answers.

thenorthman

I'm not a forester or college educated however by paying attention to the forest and trees around me, as well as other loggers and foresters, I've learned that trees  grow back, usually faster than expected by the layperson.  Logging emulates fire and disease, die off then rebirth, without the pure waste that disease and fire cause, although fire has its purposes.  Take a look at a few fires in the recent past and what they look like now, Yellow Stone is a good example I am sure there are others(can't think of any top of my head) also a good example is the utter destruction left after Mt. St. Helens while not a fire it still leveled vast acreage.  today its a nice although young forest, and its only been 30 years.  For more current Fires just look at some pictures of the recent Colorado and Warshingon state fires, pine beetle had a huge impact on both fires, not just drought, lots of standing dead trees, trees that are already matchstick dry.  Years ago dutch elm disease and another (can't remember the name) took out the american Walnut and Elms these two diseases more or less deforested the east coast,  Intense logging helped to slow some of this, but it wasn't enough.

With proper management disease can be kept to a minimum, the spread of insects can be kept to a minimum, forest fires can be kept to the ground level where they reduce fuels and pests whiles rejuvenating forest life, without getting out of control and destroying millions yes six zeros 1000000's of acres of forest and wildlife habitat, every year.

burning wood releases Exactly the same amount of co2 as it does when it decomposes, don't believe me research it.  One acre of moderately dense forest, can produce 1 cord of fire wood every year, forever.  Most house only need 5-9 cords to heat through an entire winter (if'n yer burning more invest in insulation and a smaller house ;)).  Wood products are used in a vast amount of products from buildings and T.P. to rayon and whisky, there is a list somewhere that takes about 2 hours to read all the way through it and you forget about half of it.  And this is all renewable and always has been, Don't believe me?  look at Ireland, in 1590s (maybe 1690s?) sir oliver cromwell scalped the entire west side of Ireland what didn't get used in boats was just burned, some parts were never replanted (there usualy wasn't anybody left alive to replant), others are massive oak forests the likes of which are seldom seen anywhere else in the world, other places are productive evergreen and popular plantations.  That don't work look at the rest of Europe not a stick of uncut virgin forest in the entire continent, yet they still have things like the black forest in Germany, and Frances national forests, which ours where modeled upon at one time.

Go read some history and try again.

Note: the dates and places may not be exactly accurate but the gist is there.

P.S. the dug up cromwell and then hung his head on a stake...
well that didn't work

Dal_sanyl

Quote from: woodmills1 on November 06, 2012, 07:16:58 PM
welcome


but I must ask   you joined here....WHY?



trees our most renuable resource




I joined because I know very little about the industry, and I have only heard how we must protect it, and that clear cutting is a bad practice that can change the dynamic of the forests.

I'm beginning to understand about sustainable harvesting, but I still don't see how modifying the forest for our benefit is good, even if it can be done, and managed properly. 

If harvesting emulates fire, how would Jack Pine regrow? don't the seeds need the heat to open up and sprout? and what about wildlife? if its a small surface fire then can't some creatures burrow, and escape the heat, but if they were to do that with a skidder over top they would be crushed.

Ianab

Define "good"?

Are you saying that anything that changes the dynamics of a forest is automatically bad?

That forests should simply be left "untouched by humans"? Too late to put that genie back in the bottle. Humans have been influencing the forest dynamics since they first appeared. Hunting, fire and introducing new plants affects the environment even if it's on a stone age level. Want "pre-human" conditions? Need to bring back some Wooly Mammoths and see what effect they had on the forest?

Fire? Yes it's recognised that fire is a part of the dynamic of some forests, and is a natural process. But this needs to be managed as people actually live and work in those same forests. Uncontrolled burns impact on peoples lives, literally in some cases. No logging + no fire means the fuel load builds up to a point where the fire becomes uncontrollable, and totally burns up a large area. Which is a greater effect, managed logging and buns, or big "100 year" bun off?

Economics? People living in forested areas need to make a living... Or do they pack up and move to the city (clear some more forest to expand the city). Clear the forest so they can become farmers? Want a sustainable source of raw materials and fuel? It's called a forest.

Conservation of rare species? It needs to be considered and time you make a change to the makeup of a forest. But often a young regenerating forest is a better wildlife habitat than an old "climax" forest, which may be very shaded and lacking in undergrowth and food plants.  Anyone spending time in the forest, and keeping their eyes open will notice wildlife congregating around the clearings and new growth, as that's where the food (plants and prey) are.

Forestry needs to consider all these things, and arrive at a balanced plan, economic, conservation, aesthetics etc and manage the forest for a good outcome.  Understand the cause and effect of what is going on. The effect of harvesting, or not harvesting which may be even greater.

Like it or not man is now part of the ecosystem, and pretending we are not is just fooling yourself. Forestry is about wise management of that resource.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Draco

Quote
I joined because I know very little about the industry, and I have only heard how we must protect it, and that clear cutting is a bad practice that can change the dynamic of the forests.

I'm beginning to understand about sustainable harvesting, but I still don't see how modifying the forest for our benefit is good, even if it can be done, and managed properly. 

If harvesting emulates fire, how would Jack Pine regrow? don't the seeds need the heat to open up and sprout? and what about wildlife? if its a small surface fire then can't some creatures burrow, and escape the heat, but if they were to do that with a skidder over top they would be crushed.

Do you live without using anything that is made from wood?  Is the building that you live in and the building that you work in wood free?  Do you use paper products?  Do you ever buy products that are packaged in paper, or cardboard?

Do you believe that replacing products that are made from wood with products that are derived from petroleum would be better for the planet?  How would you propose that we eliminate the need for wood and wood byproducts?

We have learned how to emulate the conditions needed to produce seedlings that once depended upon fire to germinate.

How many animals were killed during the construction of your house, office and the stores that you buy the things that you require to survive?  Would you give those things up in order to save some animals?  What would you build your new home out of?  Where would you build it?  Are you able to feed yourself and make your own clothing without a trip to the store, where you will buy things with PAPER money?

The logging industry and conservationists will never agree on everything.  Loggers will want more land to log and environmentalists will always want land preserved.  As Jeff pointed out, we are creating more forest than we had in the past.  Issues like fragmentation, soil erosion, stream damage and other problems associated with logging continue to be settled between the two interest groups.  If loggers take the last tree, they would all be out of business.  They have an interest in seeing healthy forests.  The loggers aren't your problem.  The politicians are.

Jeff

Quote from: Dal_sanyl on November 07, 2012, 12:57:56 PM

If harvesting emulates fire, how would Jack Pine regrow? don't the seeds need the heat to open up and sprout?


In a word, yes, they need heat, but that does not have to be fire. It can be from direct sunlight on the cones that is made available by logging.

I just happen to live right on the southern edge of thousands of acres of managed jackpine forests. These jackpines do not exist for logging, they exist to create the conditions that must be met to help an endangered species, the Kirtland Warbler. The warbler became nearly extinct from the lack of management of the jackpines, and from trying to save them from fire.

The warbler only nests in jackpine stands that are 5-20 years old. Older stands will not support the warbler. So, when the time comes,. they must be harvested to allow new stands to grow that will again give the right conditions for the warbler to reproduce. You can either do this by waiting to see if mother nature burns the trees down before they reach the end of their lifespan (Around 50-70 years,) or burning the forest down on purpose, or clear cutting it to allow the sun to reach the cones to cause regeneration and then utilize the wood product that was harvested to the necessary environment for the procreation of the Warbler. Without the use of Forest Management, and the tool of clear cutting, the Warbler would be extinct. Now, after years of management, they are doing very well, living and breeding north of my home, and then, lucky them, wintering in the Bahamas every year. (That is a fact) :)

Here is a pretty good publication on Jackpine Management.

http://woodlandinfo.org/publications/FEM/FEM_085.pdf

There are other species of Trees that need to be clearcut to regenerate as well, such as Aspen. If left to live and die, you end up with forests types such as red maple that have very little to offer wildlife, where as young Aspen stands are a wildlife heaven providing not only food, but habitat.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

SPD748

While I'm no expert, I can say this... I thank a farmer for each meal that I eat and a logger for the home that shelters my family. I believe that, as with any resource, our forests can and should be properly managed.

-lee
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thenorthman

I am going to take a wild guess and say you are very young say early teens maybe even preteen?  And therefore maybe a little impressionable and still passionate about life?  I'll try not to sound like the mean adult, cause believe me I'm not the best example of a responsible adult...

For starters Death is necessary, in all things, nothing lives forever.  The best thing that the human race can do is minimize our impact on this planet, unfortunately that doesn't mean eating Cheetos until the end times...  Timber harvesting is a needed and good thing, if done correctly.  Even when done poorly the land will heal itself allot quicker than any oil field I've ever been in, or strip mining for that matter, both industries that are necessary.

As far as the critters of the forest are concerned, logging disturbs them a little bit but not to bad, kinda like having a noisy neighbor for a few months, or a hurricane come through every 50 years or so.  Lots of stuff gets tore up and their a little annoyed for a few weeks but quickly forgotten once its over.  I have had to shoe deer and rabbits out of the way of timber falling weeks after logging had started, once they realize you're not going to make dinner out of em, they get down right friendly and a little pushy sometimes, just don't feed the bears and everything will be ok right?

If you ever get the chance to traipse around in some real old growth forest, get up away from the river valleys etc. and you will notice an almost instant lack of wild life, about 200-300 yards from a large river, bugs and skeeters aside there just isn't anything for them to eat, and its very dark on the forest floor, lots of fungus and moss that's about the extent of it, in all a very foreboding place to be alone in.  But an experience you will not likely forget anytime soon
well that didn't work

jd540b

Quote from: Dal_sanyl on November 06, 2012, 07:02:49 PM
Is Forestry a good thing? Doesn't it do harmful things to our environment?  How can we protect our forests when people always cut them down?
In a perfect (utopian) world we would not need to harvest our forests.  But that is not the case and is quite unrealistic-given the human race's need and incredible consumption of forest products.  Try going to the your local grocery store and buy anything without consuming a forest product...if nothing else you are going to leave with a paper reciept.  This being the case, I feel we have a responsibility to manage and extract as much as we can to fill this need from our own resources domestically where we have laws in place that protect water quality, soils, habitat, ownership, labor...etc.  The need will be there regardless and if we don't fill it, it will come from places where those things are not in place which in my mind is very selfish and short sighted.  My 2 cents.

thecfarm

By the way too. If trees are cut,trees will grow back. Maybe not the best trees or the ones that a land owner wants,but trees will grow back. This is where trimming and planting trees comes in.I have places that My Father and me cut.It is coming in so thick with white pine that I have a hard time walking through it. Mother Nature will thin this out all by herself if I don't go in and thin it out a myself. Some trees will die so others can live. There are many,many land owners and loggers that care about the woods as much as they do for thier kids. I really enjoy walking my woods in places that I am cutting and trying to make it a better forest and places that have not been cut at all.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Black_Bear

Quote from: Dal_sanyl on November 06, 2012, 07:02:49 PM
Is Forestry a good thing? Doesn't it do harmful things to our environment?  How can we protect our forests when people always cut them down?

Your first question is a question that can be answered 1000 different ways. There are dozens of variables that may sway the decisions made in the practice of forestry. My opinion is that forestry is generally a good thing, but I may be biased. I'm not an expert on western US silviculture and anyone may correct me, but it is my understanding that the lack of thinning/cutting has led to high density stands containing a relatively high percentage of dead timber, which probably tends to burn easier and faster. High fuel loads is the term, I believe.   

Second question: The logging that takes place today is not your 1960s and 1970s era logging. The Clean Air Act (1970, amended 1990) and Clean Water Act (1972, amended more than once) did a lot to clean up pollution from logging and from mills. Forest certification, typically using a third party audit system, is still relatively new and is essentially designed to ensure the sustainability of our forests and natural resources. State laws and regulations, best management practice (bmp's), forest practices acts specific to a state, etc. are in place to provide a threshold of what a logger can and can't do. That threshold is much higher than what was in place during the early 70s and earlier.

Third question: similar to the first question, you are painting with a broad brush. Forestry practices in Brazil are different than forestry practices in Maine, which are different than forestry practices in Oregon. What's good for one region may not be feasible in another region. For instance, here in New England, we benefit from natural regeneration. When the trees are cut, mother nature typically grows another stand and man does not have to manually plant trees. Start by reading about practices in your area/region and try to determine how logging and forestry practices differ from the 1970s.

Jeff

QuoteI'm not an expert on western US silviculture and anyone may correct me, but it is my understanding that the lack of thinning/cutting has led to high density stands containing a relatively high percentage of dead timber, which probably tends to burn easier and faster. High fuel loads is the term, I believe. 

That's not from management, that is the result of the ability to manage being obstructed or taken away.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Okrafarmer

Dal_sanyl, welcome to the Forum. I am glad you came on here and asked these questions. If you will be patient with us, we will be patient with you and help you learn. These men who have answered so far are very knowledgeable. I hope more people in your situation come on this website to read what we have to say here, because the word needs to get out about the truth of Forestry. We are stewards, custodians of the forest. Nature has ways of managing itself, but it was created in need of attention from man. One of mankind's chief responsibilities on earth is to manage the area he finds himself in charge of. Managing opens the door for a great number of applications. We can manage for a pristine woodland-- we can manage for maximum production-- we can manage for sustainable production-- we can manage for a certain desired product, etc. Not everyone is going to agree with what a broad sweeping plan should be for an entire nation or state, but it is mainly up to the individual land owner to manage their property according to their personal beliefs.

What I would encourage you to do, when you are able to, is to buy a piece of land of your own, and begin managing it. You may manage it any way you like, even if that means not doing anything to it. But I do encourage you to search out all the facets of this incredibly complex and fascinating industry. Thank you for taking the time to ask.  :)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Mark Wentzell

It really depends on your perspective as to whether or not forestry is bad or good. You need to look at individual practices and decide whether or not they are beneficial or detrimental. Is it bad to cut down a tolerant hardwood stand to plant black spruce? Is it bad to disrupt natural fire regimes? Is it bad to clean up blowndown trees ? Is clearcutting worse than high grading?

In my area two centuries ago, people cut down as much huge pine and spruce as they could find. This lead to a forest that was mainly composed of Balsam Fir. Is this bad? Not if you're a Balsam Fir. My point is mostly everything that happens  to the forest benefits somebody, either nature or human. Are our needs more important than the natural rhythm of the forest?

Another thing to remember is that mother nature is resilient. Forests have survived glaciers, fires, hurricanes, storms, droughts you name it and have still managed to grow back. If we abandoned a Wal Mart and came back in a hundred years, there'd be a forest where the parking lot was.

Forests are dynamic, they change, they grow, they adapt, but it's often too slow to see.

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