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Seeking advice about logging out my property to clear land for pasture.

Started by Boatskipper, June 01, 2016, 01:07:15 PM

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Boatskipper

Hello everyone. I joined this forum after a google search because I really need some advice as I have no clue who to talk to for advice about this.

I bought 25 acres of land last year and we just finished building a house on it. About 15 acres remains heavily wooded (and I mean heavily wooded). The land was neglected for decades before we bought it and it is completely overgrown, we want to clear out 10 acres out of the 15 wooded to run cattle and have a couple of horses. As thick as the timber and brush is now you can't even drive a four wheeler through it. Right now the timber is mostly hardwoods and a few cedar, but no pine.

Initially I started getting bids to clear out the land selectively. I don't just want it completely bare, we want to keep 30 or so large trees for shade, privacy, and scenery purposes. But other than that we'd want it gone. The bids were in the $15K - $20K range. One of the excavators recommended I look into having it logged out to save money (and possibly even make a little).

So this is where I need help. I realize that no logger will be jumping with joy over 10 acres, heck I don't even know if I'll be able to find one who will want the job.

What's the best way about doing this? I want to make sure that they don't leave my place a mess with stumps and ruts and holes and I also want to make sure they leave a few big trees and I don't want them to touch my pecan trees (there aren't many). Who should I talk to? How do I know what the timber's value is? How do I find a logger?

Any advice you can give is greatly appreciated.

enigmaT120

Welcome to the forum.  Your location in your profile would probably be a good start to get answers to your questions.
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

Boatskipper

Quote from: enigmaT120 on June 01, 2016, 01:18:40 PM
Welcome to the forum.  Your location in your profile would probably be a good start to get answers to your questions.

Yes, you're correct. I've updated my profile to reflect NE Oklahoma as my location.

Thanks!

scsmith42

15 - 20K to clear and destump 15 acres is a pretty good price around here.  Usually I budget about 2X this amount.  It would be ideal if they used track hoes to clear, as that way they can dig the trees up and lay them over, taking the stumps out with them at the same time.

If you have the land logged, it will be much more difficult to remove the stumps because you don't have the weight of the tree attached to help pull them out of the ground.

If you leave the stumps and just grind them, in a few years you could end up with some holes that could break a horses leg.

What you may want to consider is having the clearing guys stack the logs - separating by species, and then see about having a log buyer come in to review and buy them.  You'll be stuck with getting rid of the stumps, but this is probably the most cost effective solution.

Good luck and welcome to the FF.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Boatskipper

Quote from: scsmith42 on June 01, 2016, 02:37:14 PM
15 - 20K to clear and destump 15 acres is a pretty good price around here.  Usually I budget about 2X this amount.  It would be ideal if they used track hoes to clear, as that way they can dig the trees up and lay them over, taking the stumps out with them at the same time.

If you have the land logged, it will be much more difficult to remove the stumps because you don't have the weight of the tree attached to help pull them out of the ground.

If you leave the stumps and just grind them, in a few years you could end up with some holes that could break a horses leg.

What you may want to consider is having the clearing guys stack the logs - separating by species, and then see about having a log buyer come in to review and buy them.  You'll be stuck with getting rid of the stumps, but this is probably the most cost effective solution.

Good luck and welcome to the FF.

Where does someone go to find a log buyer? Also, is there a way for me to know if there is any real value in the timber before I have anything cut by anyone?

I'm not going to pretend that I know anything at all about this, I don't. I have no idea if I have acreage full of worthless timber or something with some value. I called the state forestry department to see if they'll give advice, but yet to hear back.

OneWithWood

Hire a consulting forester to cruise your trees and discuss your options.  It will be money well spent.  Check with your local SWCD or NRCS office if they have a listing of consulting foresters in your area.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Ron Scott

~Ron

treeslayer2003

i'd call the county forester. he can tell you what you can do with your land, wet lands connot be cleared here and just cuz it looks dry soes not mean they don't call it wet lands. they can also tell you if your timber has value and possibly give you a list of loggers that may be interested. they probobly will not give you a value, but they are state empoyees and don't charge you.

RHP Logging

I usually do a couple of these a year.  The excavators don't have any trouble popping stumps after the logs are gone.  One guy Logging, a guy in a mid sized hoe, and a guy on a mid sized dozer: cut, stacked, popped, pushed and burned 40 acres of hardwood last summer in 6 weeks. We left 5 big trees per acre and the rest looked like a golf course.  Landowner is running cattle on it.  He got paid 1300 per acre and it cost him about 2500 per acre to have the stumps pulled, slash burned and all graded nice.  Then they planted.  Don't forget the seed cost after the fact.  I was the guy doing the Logging and the boys clearing were chasing me everyday.  In the springtime or other wet time I'd take a 10 acre clear cut in a heart beat.  Find a lumber mill and have the forester cruise it.  If it's worth anything call several Mills to do the same. 
Buckin in the woods

CCC4

With us for about a year now, the machine production out weights a faller really bad. I mainly just cut the rough and steep/rocky stuff. Good reason in my boss' eyes is he can push  me enough timber with the Hydro Ax to burn 2 1/2 gallons on in like 45 minutes. The dozer (1550 Case with tree pusher) is a little slower. I would much rather fall them sometimes, but I'm paid by the load.

thenorthman

the basics have been covered, forester, mills, bids etc.

but yer options have not.

A: find a logger that will trade clearing for timber, out here its fairly common, logger does OK on the sale and you get cleared land.

B: have it logged on percentage or lump some, whatever, then pay someone to clear it, 15-20k is about right.

C: have it logged as above, then take money from the logging and purchase a used excavator (bigger the better) spend a few days (about 15) clearing it yourself, then sell excavator for more or less what you paid for it.

Down side to C is that you will have to do any maintenance on said machine, but go into it eyes wide open, and you will spend a few hours figuring out how to run it, but you can take your time and get it done your way.
well that didn't work

thenorthman

Fergot the 4th option

Log it as above, but have the loggers pile the slash (shouldn't be much extra, its the stumps that cause most of the work)

Then just get yerself a few moocows and let them do the work of clearing and what not, eventually the stumps will rot to nothing (just a few years really) and you will have some very fertile pasture in no time flat.

As a side note this is how the pioneers did it long before steam power etc.
well that didn't work

Hiway40frank

Quote from: thenorthman on June 01, 2016, 08:49:26 PM
the basics have been covered, forester, mills, bids etc.

but yer options have not.

A: find a logger that will trade clearing for timber, out here its fairly common, logger does OK on the sale and you get cleared land.

B: have it logged on percentage or lump some, whatever, then pay someone to clear it, 15-20k is about right.

C: have it logged as above, then take money from the logging and purchase a used excavator (bigger the better) spend a few days (about 15) clearing it yourself, then sell excavator for more or less what you paid for it.

Down side to C is that you will have to do any maintenance on said machine, but go into it eyes wide open, and you will spend a few hours figuring out how to run it, but you can take your time and get it done your way.

No clue the price where he lives but up here at Taylor rental you can rent a 15 ton hoe for 3 grand a month so figure whatever other projects you need done and save a lot vs paying someone to do it.

thenorthman

a 15t aka 160 sized out here is $2500 a week plus delivery and fuel

but I can buy one for $19500

Down side of a rental, is it gives you a very short window to get things done, by a week they mean 40hrs, even though you have it for 168 hrs, they tend to charge extra for going over the time limit, and you don't get any discount for staying under.

So say you had mon. thru fri. and put 60 hrs on it (which is easy) that 2500 just went too 3750, and tack on the 400-600 for moving it each way (800-1200) that 2500 just became 3300-3700... less the extra hours,

Now say you want to hang onto it for en extra week, add 2500.

When I first got going logging lots of non loggers said "just rent the machine, no maintenance and it will pay for itself... blah blah blah" I have a phone and a calculator, make the phone calls do the math then decide is it better to buy old and resell or rent, and keep renting.
well that didn't work


wolf nemeth

Welcome to the Forum!  By far your best option (and it has yet to be discussed) is to hire a forestry mulcher.  Far less environmental impact, you have wood shreds and chips covering otherwise bare earth, (and  protecting the   grass sprouts), and  you can still  do as you want with the  6" +   diameter trees. Just google it  and watch a youtube video or two. you'll never want a dozer once you see the mulcher in action!
If you  don't know where you're going, you'll probably end up somewhere else!

Hiway40frank

Things are expensive on the west coast. I guess I have it lucky here in the east. still I would bite the bullet on a rental if it was a 1 time job because you know how a 20k machine can very well cost you another 10k when you're done. If I was running a buisness with it I would buy used or lease new never rent.

scsmith42

Quote from: wolf nemeth on June 02, 2016, 04:19:23 PM
Welcome to the Forum!  By far your best option (and it has yet to be discussed) is to hire a forestry mulcher.  Far less environmental impact, you have wood shreds and chips covering otherwise bare earth, (and  protecting the   grass sprouts), and  you can still  do as you want with the  6" +   diameter trees. Just google it  and watch a youtube video or two. you'll never want a dozer once you see the mulcher in action!

These are not good options when the subsequent pasture is to be used for horses.  Small stumps left in the ground will rot and create holes.  This is a good way for a running horse to break a leg.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

thenorthman

Quote from: Hiway40frank on June 02, 2016, 08:00:56 PM
Things are expensive on the west coast. I guess I have it lucky here in the east. still I would bite the bullet on a rental if it was a 1 time job because you know how a 20k machine can very well cost you another 10k when you're done. If I was running a buisness with it I would buy used or lease new never rent.

Its a supply and demand thing, lots of operators but no machines, so the rentals don't spend much time idle, also factor in how close I am to Seattle and all the development going on there (constant development) plus MicroSoft is only 25 miles from here, so you get a bunch of Geeks that are good with joysticks and have loads of extra money...

I figure it this way though,

about 10 hours per acre, 15 acres 150 hours, 9300 just for the rental, assuming you have 15 days straight to run the thing (which no one ever does) then tack on moving cost yer at 10k or more. Just for the rental, hiring it would be 15k-20k at 100-125 and hour ish.. so ya find an ole cat 225, or a deere 590b, or hitachi uh123-uh040 that runs ok for 15-20k, dig yer property up on the weekends, it takes you most of the summer and fall, come next spring sell the excavator for 15-20k and call it good.
well that didn't work

thenorthman

Also while I'm thinkin on it.

folks like to say "leave the trees and push em over with the excavator, makes it easier"

While yes the stump comes out easier, it can make a mess of the timber, and its pretty dangerous for an unskilled operator to be trying.

Get a decent sized excavator and popping stumps isn't any harder or slower then if the tree is still attached, and arguably goes faster.  Up to the logger really. But I prefer to hand fall, and deal with stumps and brush separately
well that didn't work

redprospector

Quote from: thenorthman on June 02, 2016, 11:18:04 PM
Quote from: Hiway40frank on June 02, 2016, 08:00:56 PM
Things are expensive on the west coast. I guess I have it lucky here in the east. still I would bite the bullet on a rental if it was a 1 time job because you know how a 20k machine can very well cost you another 10k when you're done. If I was running a buisness with it I would buy used or lease new never rent.

Its a supply and demand thing, lots of operators but no machines, so the rentals don't spend much time idle, also factor in how close I am to Seattle and all the development going on there (constant development) plus MicroSoft is only 25 miles from here, so you get a bunch of Geeks that are good with joysticks and have loads of extra money...

I figure it this way though,

about 10 hours per acre, 15 acres 150 hours, 9300 just for the rental, assuming you have 15 days straight to run the thing (which no one ever does) then tack on moving cost yer at 10k or more. Just for the rental, hiring it would be 15k-20k at 100-125 and hour ish.. so ya find an ole cat 225, or a deere 590b, or hitachi uh123-uh040 that runs ok for 15-20k, dig yer property up on the weekends, it takes you most of the summer and fall, come next spring sell the excavator for 15-20k and call it good.

The only thing I can think of that you may have left out of the equation is the 15 to 20k you may have to spend on an old excavator to keep her going.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

BargeMonkey

 My opinion may sound diff than others but again alot of the FF is based regionally, what works here isn't the same elsewhere.
I would get a mill or forester to look it over, then for the fun of it I would post your facts on here, we have nothing to gain and hate seeing people get screwed over by dishonest people when everyone here strives to make the industry shine in a positive light.
Unless you planned on buying a machine and keeping it, figuring what the logs brought and doing the clearing work yourself as a bonus of owning the machine I tend to recommend against buying something until all other options are not viable. I wheel and deal in used iron, again the FF is a huge tool for researching iron, but you can get burned with an odd machine that's in rougher shape than you realized, be 20k in the hole and still be looking at stumps. I do a fair amount of clearing work, alot just like your describing, just walked a monster woodlot that's getting a haircut that will starve a woodpecker. I hate tipping trees over with stumps attached, would rather log it to death and then stump it, it makes a mess and is actually a hazard to the guy on the ground plus it's slow, your not getting the good stump wood with the tree laying on its side and it's just downright dangerous. We own 4 excavators from a -121-3 to a 230C-LC, been down this road. Rental is a rough deal, but done right it's good because your not tied to a machine, add fuel and grease and send it home when your done. Again rental rates are diff all over so I can't give my honest opinion, around here your father ahead to just have an honest guy come cut it, and work the stumping into the logging. I don't know what you've been quoted, here depending on how we dispose of stumps, how wet and the paperwork involved it runs from 2500 up to ??? Per acre. I just did one for 7500 an acre and I didn't stump it, so get a couple prices, if it seems to good to be true it might be.
When you say "boatskipper" ??? What exactly do you mean ? Westcoast ? Eastcoast?  The river ??? There's a few other boat guys here on the FF. I hold a Chief Limited Ocean's and 2nd's ticket working on the eastcoast. Walking away from the tug/barge scene soon to cut wood fulltime.

Raider Bill

The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

RHP Logging

Pushing whole trees over the stump has to be handled twice.  Once to push it, then after the wood is bucked off it has to be shook off and moved to the burn pile.  Make sure you burn stumps with the tops.  It a waste of time and money to bury or haul stumps. I tried to explain that several times to some guys this spring.  They burned the tops first and then had a hell of a time burning stumps.  One pile they stirred for three weeks.  Also a hoe with a thumb is pretty much mandatory.  You can do with out, but it takes more finesse.  Usually a frost tooth is pretty nice to pop stuff out, but a bucket will work.  You have to do more digging though.  So log first, then pull stumps, then pile and burn. You can do some light grading when you're pushing up piles then better grade as you go.  And don't forget the rocks. On one sale they had a landscaper buying and hauling em away for 100 bucks a quad.  Doesn't soundike much, but better than having to lose them yourself.  They took like 30-40 quads out over 60 acres and this wasn't even rock country. 
Buckin in the woods

Hiway40frank

Well I guess its time for you to show us what you actually want done (pictures) if its acres of mature hardwoods people will pay you to log it if its all brush its another story. If its nothing huge and the land is not a mud hole a d10 or smaller dozer could just rip the whole thing in a few pass's. My advice is to stay away from used machines, remember they're selling it for a reason most people with good quality machines have the running making money for them, then something hits the fan they do a cheap fix and get rid of it as quick as possible. Being from New York ive learned just about everyother guy out there is looking to rip someone off, mind you I grew up in the city. All in all if you have the coin just pay someone to do it a new track or roller for a hoe could cost half what you payd for it...

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